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I am not an expert but I have had a boxster and 911 and 911s. My advise is test drive both a 911 and a 911s. Which makes you smile more. If there is not diff. Sit down and compare the specs. If you feel you will make mods to increase power, paint the calipers, change the exhaust tips if you go with the 911, then just go straight to an S. If not, then you should be happy with the 911. Any Porsche is a fantastic car. Can't go wrong.
This is going to be a longer post, so bear with me. Also, I'm assuming the OP is referring to 997.1 vehicles and not 997.2, which is a substantial factor regarding this discussion.
When I purchased my 911 a little over a year ago I also went for the 'base' 997 and have often wondered whether or not I made the right decision. I live in Germany and over here, the ratio between 3.6L and 3.8L cars is about 1:1, which does not apply to the US or other regions as far as I'm aware. This means that the 'base' is a lot more common over here and that there are more (and more varied) cars on the market. After hunting for over 6 months, I finally found the car I wanted with regard to color, equipment, mechnical condition and mileage - though it was sadly 'just' the 'base'. After driving the 'S', I decided to for the base due to the fact that the, to me quite negligible, power difference was not worth additional hunting and waiting (contrary to popular belief, there are not that many 911s in Germany). Considering the price I paid, I would also have been able to get an 'S', though either with more miles or less extras.
As a sports car, the 'base' is an entirely adequate proposition - do not let people tell you otherwise.
Nevertheless, not 'having the S' can be a psychological barrier (I know that it was, and to some extent still is, for me). If you're a person that lets people on forums (who may or may not have a clue) nag at you, then, by all means, go for an 'S' - as you may regret the purchase if you do not. If you're only worried about how other people will see your car (which is rather childish) then there is, however, no need to worry as the great majority of people will not be able to tell a Carerra from a Carrera S. Most will not even be capable of differentiating between a Carrera and a Turbo, many cannot even distinguish between a Boxster/Cayman and a 911 - you have to realize that most people are not car enthusiasts or angry old men on Porsche forums. I've never heard a bad comment about my 'base' model and don't know any owner that has. You should rather be prepared to hear a number of other comments or 'looks' as owning a 911 causes many people to instantly think you've become a wealthy ****** over night. THIS is something I sadly have experienced...
From an objective standpoint, however, the 'S' is probably only worth the surcharge (if there is a substantial surcharge in your market) for the bigger brakes and other standard features that come with it and not the 10% increase in HP. In a comparison test against the Corvette C6 from about the time these cars were launched, C&D measured the 'base' 997 at 4.3s 0-60, 10.5s 0-100 with the quarter mile at 12.8s. This compares to 4.1/10.2/12.6 values for the Carrera S. A negligible difference, if we're being honest, and not one anyone will honestly notice during normal, and even spirited, driving. Faster track times on the 'S' will primarily be due to the tires and bigger brakes. Though these times may not seem like much, it should not be underestimated that these engines exhibit fundamentally different characteristics and, as such, the 'S' may be perceived as quicker than it actually is - the perception of acceleration is something that is entirely subjective.
I also have to marvel at the perception of a slow 'base' coming from an Audi S4. The 2010 S4 does 0-60 in 4.9s, 0-100 in 12s and the quarter mile in 13.4s. Now THAT is a substantial difference. Though I believe that the vehicle in question was a Cab, while those are a good bit slower, they should still beat the S4 handily (especially if the S4 was also a Cab).
With regard to M-Cars, the new M3/M4 will leave the Carrera in the dust, though the same applies to the Carrera S of that generation. The new M235i is a good bit slower and, of course, an M5 will always be faster. The manual E92 M3 has almost equivalent performance figures (quarter mile in 12.9, 0-60 in 4.4), the DCT is a bit quicker, especially as speeds start to climb (though if we're talking about a market outside of Germany, how important is that?). As someone who commutes on the Autobahn on a daily basis, I honestly couldn't care for a quicker car - too much traffic. I very rarely get to go past 130/140mph due to some less attentive driver pulling into the left lane, roadworks and any number of other reasons...also, 911s (and particularly RWD ones) are not really fun to drive past, say, 150mph for longer amounts of time, due to the front end being so light. It starts to wobble at some point and the whole thing gets a little scary. Also, in my 13 months of Autobahn driving, I have encountered someone with the intention to overtake me exactly 0 times. So unless it's a new (and big) 'M' car there is no need to soil your pants.
It also cannot be overstated that the 'base' with the MT transmission is by no means the slowest of the 997 model lot. A cab, Targa, or AWD with the 3.6 is always slower (and in case of the Targa, the 3.8 is slower as well). A tiptronic (which I know many people here also like - and that is FINE) is a substantial performance hit to the extent that the Carrera S will be a good bit slower than a 'base' MT. In fact, according to numbers alone, it takes a WLS (Werksleistungssteigerung), also known as the X51 Power Kit, to bring a Tiptronic 'S' to 'base' levels - though it will undoubtedly feel quite powerful from a subjective perspective. I'm just mentioning this, since I've seen this discussion unfold on many forums - particularly whenever somebody with the intention to purchase a 997 asks this no doubt very important question. In the end, I always have to chuckle when that person happily declares having purchased the superior 'S'...with a Tiptronic. Now I know many people love their autos, and (as I have said) that is cool (and undoubtedly much more enjoyable in traffic), but if we're talking about performance (and said performance is the reason the person in question opted for the 'S'), then going for the Tiptronic becomes a strange decision.
PDK changes all that, of course. A 997.2 'base' with PDK is faster than 997.1 'S' while the manual draws even. This is also something that's funny on many Porsche forums..whenever there's an 'S' or 'Non-S' discussion concerning facelift models, some people always hate on that 'base' model as well, which they also consider 'insufficient'. Now, I wonder, why isn't the 997.1 'S' also 'insufficient' - it puts down the same numbers, after all? Perception is all it is. Some also argue that the 3.6L engines are less prone to bore scoring and possibly other issues of this generation - though I'm not convinced this is the case...the fact that more 3.8s break is more likely due to the fact that more 3.8s were built.
Sorry for this wall of text, but it's something that's bugging me about Porsche ownership. I honestly wish they would do away with the different engines. Let's not forget that many 911 generations didn't distinguish between 'S' and 'Non-S' engines at all. With regard to what the OP has stated...every P-Car is a P-Car, at least as long as we're talking about the 'sports cars' of the lineup , no matter if it's a 'base' 911, a 981 Cayman GTS or a 987 Boxster. Yes, even the Boxster - which is by far the most irritating and childish prejudice so-called 'car enthusiasts' have, and which would bug me to no end if I owned a Boxster. By now, everyone should have realized that the Boxster is a serious performance vehicle and, in many ways, superior to the 911 platform (though the 'S' versus 'Non-S' discussion is quite different for the Cayman/Boxster where the performance gap is substantially bigger, I'd take the 'S' there, personally).
Lastly, if it's the caliper color you're after...you can always paint them (though you should avoid red in order not to stir up the natives). My calipers were quite worn and I had them re-painted yellow (which some also consider problematic, since I don't have PCCB - but who cares, they go well with my Sport Classics, and there's really no other sensible color). Picture attached.
Last edited by freeman2344; 01-04-2015 at 12:52 AM.
This is going to be a longer post, so bear with me. Also, I'm assuming the OP is referring to 997.1 vehicles and not 997.2, which is a substantial factor regarding this discussion. When I purchased my 911 a little over a year ago I also went for the 'base' 997 and have often wondered whether or not I made the right decision. I live in Germany and over here, the ratio between 3.6L and 3.8L cars is about 1:1, which does not apply to the US or other regions as far as I'm aware. This means that the 'base' is a lot more common over here and that there are more (and more varied) cars on the market. After hunting for over 6 months, I finally found the car I wanted with regard to color, equipment, mechnical condition and mileage - though it was sadly 'just' the 'base'. After driving the 'S', I decided to for the base due to the fact that the, to me quite negligible, power difference was not worth additional hunting and waiting (contrary to popular belief, there are not that many 911s in Germany). Considering the price I paid, I would also have been able to get an 'S', though either with more miles or less extras. As a sports car, the 'base' is an entirely adequate proposition - do not let people tell you otherwise. Nevertheless, not 'having the S' can be a psychological barrier (I know that it was, and to some extent still is, for me). If you're a person that lets people on forums (who may or may not have a clue) nag at you, then, by all means, go for an 'S' - as you may regret the purchase if you do not. If you're only worried about how other people will see your car (which is rather childish) then there is, however, no need to worry as the great majority of people will not be able to tell a Carerra from a Carrera S. Most will not even be capable of differentiating between a Carrera and a Turbo, many cannot even distinguish between a Boxster/Cayman and a 911 - you have to realize that most people are not car enthusiasts or angry old men on Porsche forums. I've never heard a bad comment about my 'base' model and don't know any owner that has. You should rather be prepared to hear a number of other comments or 'looks' as owning a 911 causes many people to instantly think you've become a wealthy ****** over night. THIS is something I sadly have experienced... From an objective standpoint, however, the 'S' is probably only worth the surcharge (if there is a substantial surcharge in your market) for the bigger brakes and other standard features that come with it and not the 10% increase in HP. In a comparison test against the Corvette C6 from about the time these cars were launched, C&D measured the 'base' 997 at 4.3s 0-60, 10.5s 0-100 with the quarter mile at 12.8s. This compares to 4.1/10.2/12.6 values for the Carrera S. A negligible difference, if we're being honest, and not one anyone will honestly notice during normal, and even spirited, driving. Faster track times on the 'S' will primarily be due to the tires and bigger brakes. Though these times may not seem like much, it should not be underestimated that these engines exhibit fundamentally different characteristics and, as such, the 'S' may be perceived as quicker than it actually is - the perception of acceleration is something that is entirely subjective. I also have to marvel at the perception of a slow 'base' coming from an Audi S4. The 2010 S4 does 0-60 in 4.9s, 0-100 in 12s and the quarter mile in 13.4s. Now THAT is a substantial difference. Though I believe that the vehicle in question was a Cab, while those are a good bit slower, they should still beat the S4 handily (especially if the S4 was also a Cab). With regard to M-Cars, the new M3/M4 will leave the Carrera in the dust, though the same applies to the Carrera S of that generation. The new M235i is a good bit slower and, of course, an M5 will always be faster. The manual E92 M3 has almost equivalent performance figures (quarter mile in 12.9, 0-60 in 4.4), the DCT is a bit quicker, especially as speeds start to climb (though if we're talking about a market outside of Germany, how important is that?). As someone who commutes on the Autobahn on a daily basis, I honestly couldn't care for a quicker car - too much traffic. I very rarely get to go past 130/140mph due to some less attentive driver pulling into the left lane, roadworks and any number of other reasons...also, 911s (and particularly RWD ones) are not really fun to drive past, say, 150mph for longer amounts of time, due to the front end being so light. It starts to wobble at some point and the whole thing gets a little scary. Also, in my 13 months of Autobahn driving, I have encountered someone with the intention to overtake me exactly 0 times. So unless it's a new (and big) 'M' car there is no need to soil your pants. It also cannot be overstated that the 'base' with the MT transmission is by no means the slowest of the 997 model lot. A cab, Targa, or AWD with the 3.6 is always slower (and in case of the Targa, the 3.8 is slower as well). A tiptronic (which I know many people here also like - and that is FINE) is a substantial performance hit to the extent that the Carrera S will be a good bit slower than a 'base' MT. In fact, according to numbers alone, it takes a WLS (Werksleistungssteigerung), also known as the X51 Power Kit, to bring a Tiptronic 'S' to 'base' levels - though it will undoubtedly feel quite powerful from a subjective perspective. I'm just mentioning this, since I've seen this discussion unfold on many forums - particularly whenever somebody with the intention to purchase a 997 asks this no doubt very important question. In the end, I always have to chuckle when that person happily declares having purchased the superior 'S'...with a Tiptronic. Now I know many people love their autos, and (as I have said) that is cool (and undoubtedly much more enjoyable in traffic), but if we're talking about performance (and said performance is the reason the person in question opted for the 'S'), then going for the Tiptronic becomes a strange decision. PDK changes all that, of course. A 997.2 'base' with PDK is faster than 997.1 'S' while the manual draws even. This is also something that's funny on many Porsche forums..whenever there's an 'S' or 'Non-S' discussion concerning facelift models, some people always hate on that 'base' model as well, which they also consider 'insufficient'. Now, I wonder, why isn't the 997.1 'S' also 'insufficient' - it puts down the same numbers, after all? Perception is all it is. Some also argue that the 3.6L engines are less prone to bore scoring and possibly other issues of this generation - though I'm not convinced this is the case...the fact that more 3.8s break is more likely due to the fact that more 3.8s were built. Sorry for this wall of text, but it's something that's bugging me about Porsche ownership. I honestly wish they would do away with the different engines. Let's not forget that many 911 generations didn't distinguish between 'S' and 'Non-S' engines at all. With regard to what the OP has stated...every P-Car is a P-Car, at least as long as we're talking about the 'sports cars' of the lineup , no matter if it's a 'base' 911, a 981 Cayman GTS or a 987 Boxster. Yes, even the Boxster - which is by far the most irritating and childish prejudice so-called 'car enthusiasts' have, and which would bug me to no end if I owned a Boxster. By now, everyone should have realized that the Boxster is a serious performance vehicle and, in many ways, superior to the 911 platform (though the 'S' versus 'Non-S' discussion is quite different for the Cayman/Boxster where the performance gap is substantially bigger, I'd take the 'S' there, personally). Lastly, if it's the caliper color you're after...you can always paint them (though you should avoid red in order not to stir up the natives). My calipers were quite worn and I had them re-painted yellow (which some also consider problematic, since I don't have PCCB - but who cares, they go well with my Sport Classics, and there's really no other sensible color). Picture attached.
As a "base" 997.1 owner I couldn't agree more. The capabilities of any modern porsche likely outstrips the average porsche driver's skill.
I honestly wish they would do away with the different engines. Let's not forget that many 911 generations didn't distinguish between 'S' and 'Non-S' engines at all.
As far back as 1971 (probably before then too) there were different engines for 911's - I had a 1971 911T and I believe that there were 911S and 911E...so the multi engine offerings from Porsche is not new...and unlikely to go away.
Good post. It reminds me of the fact that when the car magazines review Porsche models, they frequently sing the praises of base model, lightly optioned cars. When they spec their ideal car, they favor options like PSE and LSD over options like leather interiors or high-end sound systems.
Definitely get an S. More power. More fun. Better brakes. More desirable when time comes to sell or trade towards an upgrade. I just got a 991 C2S. Best decision and couldn't be happier.
+1 that Joe Average can't tell the difference. Many people ask me if my 07 is brand new! If the performance difference isn't an issue then get a non-S and lower it. Good to go
By ALL MEANS the 997 911 is NOT just a "basic" car~ It's a NINE ELEVEN!!! It IS the CAR that is used for many platforms in the Porsche family and what started it all~
I have been very fortunate enough to have had a quite a few P-Cars ranging from a 1992 964 C2 all the way to an 05 C-GT to name a few along with a few other exotics of which I no longer own~ But you know what at the end of the day it is what you feel happy with~ And I think everyone here can agree with me on this here:
To each is own and I think EVERYONE is entitled to what makes them happy about the car they own~ Whether it'd be just personal/self gratification of owning the car and driving it, or purchasing a car that u may think will appreciate it in value, or being praised by others and getting compliments by passerbys or being accepted by the car enthusiast crowd etc etc... and the list goes on~ So whatever YOU value your happiness of owning the car, you should make the purchase to your OWN standards~ Each person has their own characteristics~
I myself NO MATTER WHAT ANYONE says, acquire a car that I LIKE in looks and driving characteristics, the car that I CAN live with and afford to my budget, the car that I love going to peek at in the garage in the middle of the night as I get that drink of water and go back to bed with a smile on my face... and if others agree with my taste in my ride, good and if not it doesn't matter cuz it's WHAT I LIKE... well that's me anyways~
Trust me I have seriously had the pleasure of owning many different rides and as funny as it sounds and as crazy as my frenz think for saying this... out of all the cars I have owned, most of the cars I miss and wish I had never sold and still had to this date were some basic rides... NOT the other exotics I've had that everyone else praised:
My 1992 Integra GS-R Milano Red and my 1997 997.1 C4... YES the BASE C4!!! It was a No stories very reliable clean and solid daily ride... yes BASIC meaning NO STORIES, NO PROBLEMS NO Mumbo Jumbo and was fast enough... And it looked nice and had just enough power so you could push it to it's limits without gettin ballz crazy and scared and still go to the grocery store with it~ Not to mention servicing it was a fraction of the cost of any other exotic I owned and you know what... IT'S A PORSCHE!
P.S. although NOT a "basic" car an honorable mention...I loved my 97 Polar Silver w/Flamenco red interior 993 Turbo s as well~
So yeah sorry for my long rant but as I said and everyone else here said, BUY WHAT FITS Your standard of Happiness whatever that may be~
As far back as 1971 (probably before then too) there were different engines for 911's - I had a 1971 911T and I believe that there were 911S and 911E...so the multi engine offerings from Porsche is not new...and unlikely to go away.
I'm aware of that, which is why I stated that many, not all generations of 911 did not disinguish between "S" and "Non-S" engines (e.g. 993, 964, 996).
I agree that the 911 Carrera is a proper sports car, I just enjoy the, as Clarkson says, POOOOOWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAARRRR. I drove the regular Carrera and the 2S when I bought my Cayman S. At the time I liked the Cayman S pricing better. A year later I purchased my 2006 911 Carrera S. I drove a regular and then an S right after because my local dealer had both. I just loved the extra power of the S. I went a little above my means to get the S and sold it about a year and a half later. Went back to my Nissan roots and got a 2009 370z Nismo. A fantastic drivers car, but not a 911. As my Dad told me when he got his first and only one back in 1988; there is nothing that drives like a 911.
It was the Commemorative Edition -http://grautogallery.com/vehicles/1822/1988-Porsche-911 , just in case someone wants to see exactly what it looked like, this car is identical to his.
After a quick 6 months in the Nismo, I had Porsche fever again, I went out and found my current 2007 Porsche 911 Carrera 4S and I couldn't be happier. This car is exactly what I wanted. For me the 4S is just an absolute monster. So much power and the ability to put it down is fantastic. I also lucked out in finding a car with Sport Chrono and its like a totally different car with that button pushed. Now that I've put Headers and Highflow cats on it the power is just fantastic. The best thing about the 911, and I mean any 911, is the ability to put the power down. A 355 hp 911S is not that far off in acceleration times from the 425hp M4 you mentioned. I remember on Top Gear when Hammond and Clarkson did a highway blast in the 911 GT3 RS and the Gallardo Superleggera. The 911 with 415 hp and the Lambo with 562 and they were basically dead even. Its all in how the car uses the power and the 911 uses it better than most. Drive both, then see what you can afford. I recommend buying certified but most of these cars are fantastic. There are some issues with IMS but they are less and less as you go from 2005 to 2008 with them being pretty much non existent in 2009+ cars. Either way you will end up wanting to buy a daily driver to keep miles off of the 911 but end up keeping miles off the daily driver like I do because all I want to do is drive the 911.
I posted earlier about how to deal with others perceptions and your own doubts about which model to get. Now I wanted to comment specifically on the differences in performance between the 997.1 Carrera 3.6 vs the Carrera S 3.8. I want to reiterate as well that I am a huge Porsche fan and know that every model has its strengths and weaknesses, but that they are all wonderful to drive.
After seeing a few posts that state the performance differences are not that noticeable between base and S models I have to amicably disagree. I realize it depends on the situation the car is being used for and yes, I know that if you compare a heavier Targa 4S with a light base model then there is little performance difference... BUT... I have driven both models back to back quite extensively and on road, track and canyon runs. I am a very aggressive driver with lots of track experience and I blast through my favorite canyons at least once a week. While doing normal street driving the differences may feel small, but on the track and aggressive canyon runs the differences are much bigger and noticeable.
0-60 mph and 1/4 mile times range and vary depending on the magazine you read. In R&T Magazine a 2005 Carrera S manual transmission has seen a best of 0-60 mph in 3.9 seconds and quarter mile of 12.3 @ 115 mph. Regardless of the magazine numbers there is a real world difference of a good 1/2 second between 0-60 mph and 1/4 mile times between base and S models in a straight line. That only tells a small part of living with the cars. On a daily drivers basis there is a noticeable torque difference too. The Carrera S feels more eager and punchy in most driving situations. Even when just cruising there is less need to downshift in order to pass. The torque advantage is very real and noticeable over the 3.6.
Now when it comes to aggressive canyon and track driving the differences really show again. A Carrera S comes standard with pasm suspension and big brakes so there is already a handling and braking advantage. I have raced Willow Springs Track here in California many times and with really good Porsche drivers who are friends. With equal drivers there is a 2-3 second gap in lap times between base and S models. After 5 laps with the S consistently posting better lap times there is a 10 second gap. The base models smaller brakes tend to over heat and get soft after several hot laps. Where as the big red S brakes keep on stopping lap after lap with no issues. The confidence you have at the track in the S model is quite significant. Now I have friends with base models that have switched brake fluid and used Pagid brake pads to get better braking performance, and it does help, but at the end of the day the advantage still goes to the S models brakes with stock pads and brake fluid.
So if you plan on tracking your car those are things to really think about. Canyon driving falls some where in between road and track driving. The advantages of better torque, braking and handling are still there and felt. Just not to the degree of track driving.
The attached video is great. Its a "Best Motoring" Japanes Car show episode and It really shows the differences between Carrera 3.6 and Carrera S 3.8 from a performance stand point.
Again... This to show the difference in performance between Carrera vs Carrera S. This has nothing to do with the joy one feels driving any Porsche daily. And there is lots of joy to be had driving any 911
Sounds like OP needs a GT3RS 4.0. Anything less and he'll get a ton of hate...
No hate here. We are all part of the Porsche family and want everyone to enjoy their 911. The OP wanted an honest opinion about Carrera vs Carrera S. Which was a curiosity even I had and thought a lot about before purchasing my 911. So I hope we have been able to give the OP some good insight in order to make a wise and informed decision that works best for him. What ever the OP decides to purchase I hope he understands that he will find great joy in being a Porsche owner and part of the club
Regardless of the magazine numbers there is a real world difference of a good 1/2 second between 0-60 mph and 1/4 mile times between base and S models in a straight line.
No offense mate, but that seems a little on the high side. Do you have any real-world evidence to back that up? I've seen quite a lot of "data sets" that compare these values and never have I seen such a discrepancy. Again, we can agree on the fact that this is not that relevant in the real world, but still, I think the difference is not that extreme.
With regard to track driving, I've only been to 3 Porsche sponsored track events as these are quite rare here in Germany (would you believe it), so my personal experience is quite limited and I am, by no means, a professional driver. However, I do have to say that brake fade has never been a problem with my standard brakes (again, this also depends on how many laps are driven, the track and a multitude of other factors, so your milage may certainly vary). My car is also equipped with PASM (I'm not sure how much of a difference that actually makes as I have never driven a non-PASM 997) and 19-inch wheels. We often had mixed fields with 911s, Cays and Boxsters of every vintage and engine variant and even as an amateur, I would say that my times were quite alright, especially in comparison to faster 911s. Now, to be sure, there are a multitude of factors in play here...how well did the other drivers know their cars? How far were they willing to push their cars? How much experience did they have? But in my experience, a better driver in the base model will be able to hang with or defeat the 'S'. Again, the overall "driver's standard" and "willingness to push" may be lower over here and I do not know how much of an advantage the tires + PASM really offer, but I would say that it comes down to the driver in the end. With drivers of equal skill level, the 'S' will undoubtedly be superior.
As to the 'Best Motoring' test: I'm not sure how representative the final race actually is, there's a lot going on there. However, note how close the 'Time Attack' values of the two cars are to each other.
Edit: I just checked out your car - really like the ducktail!
Last edited by freeman2344; 01-08-2015 at 07:29 AM.
01-03-2015, 10:30 PM
, no matter if it's a 'base' 911, a 981 Cayman GTS or a 987 Boxster. Yes, even the Boxster - which is by far the most irritating and childish prejudice so-called 'car enthusiasts' have, and which would bug me to no end if I owned a Boxster. By now, everyone should have realized that the Boxster is a serious performance vehicle and, in many ways, superior to the 911 platform (though the 'S' versus 'Non-S' discussion is quite different for the Cayman/Boxster where the performance gap is substantially bigger, I'd take the 'S' there, personally).
