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Engine making ticking noise.

 
  #31  
Old 10-23-2014, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike bamford rose View Post
I just listened to the video clip on previous page and all the attempts / advice to diagnose issue, but does indeed sound like a base engine issue to me.

Sorry to say for OP and anybody else with similar problem, and after cylinder head components that have been / can be changed in situ have been ruled out (but they sound like different sort of tick than one in video), requires removal, strip, engine rebuild and refit to correct.

We have 3 '9's in with same problem (well, 2 nearly down 1 to go). All have worn small end bearings with oval liners, probably get around 2 cars per month coming in with same complaint.

2 quarts down on oil would not have been root cause of issue, especially if updated dipstick fitted.


Copied from my blog on PH...

Our experience of numerous ticking V12 engines, the mode of failure is small end bearing wear which causes faint ticking which goes mostly unnoticed (but on a few cars that visit our shop for basic service we can hear it looming as problem and the owner is blissfully unaware). However long it takes? the wearing small end causes piston to rock / rotate out of control, rings to flutter at high engine speed which starts to wear liner oval. At this stage, the oval liner (piston slap) and worn little end (faint tick) alerts the owner that the engine has an issue - cant avoid but notice because the engine sounds like an old ticking Talbot tapper. At this point also, oil consumption is normally a little high because the engine is internally breathing excessive oil through breather circuit system / back into inlet manifold. At this time its engine removal, strip, re-liner and engine / car rebuild. This is a pain because should this happen to an older high miler DB7 or DB9 the repair value Vs the cars market value questions if its economic to repair - Scary to think DB9 is in that category in 2014 but is a dilemma more than a few BR customers had to battle with.

The 'tick' doesn't seem to cause widespread problem to DB7 or Vanquish but is not unknown. Seems to be mostly an issue for early DB9 because as of yet, we have not seen problem on a 470BHP DB9, or any later 510BHP spec V12. Conversely there are some early high miler DB9's out there that are fine too.
Wow! That's really disheartening to hear. This is bad bad news. I really hope mine is not this situation.
 
  #32  
Old 10-23-2014, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by theegolden1 View Post
Wow! That's really disheartening to hear. This is bad bad news. I really hope mine is not this situation.
quite, i hope this happens to as few as possible around the globe

Fact is, there is the potential and is not isolated.

what made me say what i did about your case is that in the video clip there is the / a distinctive metallic sounding tick charecteristic of the fault i stated present. Of course, diagnosis remote is tricky, and i hope for you the outcome is simple, but if you have checked all the obvious and drawn a blank, there isn't much else left.
 
  #33  
Old 10-23-2014, 12:23 PM
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This is the first I have heard of this. I wonder if Irish who works at a AM dealer has heard about it? Mike, what is causing the small end bearing to fail? Do you have pictures of failed ones?

My condolences to the OP hopefully you get it rectified. It would suck to have a car for such a short while then find something major like this!
 
  #34  
Old 10-23-2014, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by dan87951 View Post
This is the first I have heard of this.
what is causing the small end bearing to fail?
Do you have pictures of failed ones?

My condolences to the OP hopefully you get it rectified. It would suck to have a car for such a short while then find something major like this!
Indeed, condolences (if his is a base engine issue) to the OP. To help avoid the situation where prospective purchasers turn into owners with a problem is the reason i recently went vocal on the subject over on PH, until then the problem has been known about, but probably mainly due to not having a public platform like me, other re-builders except through dialog with owners, have not disclosed the exact mode of failure widely. I have seen enough guys (and wish to see no more) who after saving for years to buy their dream car, find a bill more than half its value is waiting. I cant do too much to help owners already with the problem, but at least i can advise a pre purchase inspection is imperative for every prospective owner.

I cant speak for US other than i know of and am in communication with 4 owners presently with the same sounding issue, and over the last years probably had about 10 US owners contact me directly with a video clip with same sounding issue. We have repaired about 7 UK cars with the issue, had engines shipped to us from Germany, France and Singapore with the issue. Its quite common in UK classifieds to see a few older '9's with adverts stating 'new engine fitted' to cars i'm unaware of previously, and most likely its either the tick or failed big end bearing (due to running low on oil) the culprit. We have probably repaired about 10 V12's due to low oil mode of failure. If same in the US as UK, cars with this problem are probably outside the dealer network anyway due to age, and at least in UK, dealers rarely rebuild engines anyway because they are not trained to, they simply pick a refurbished unit off the shelf, hence why there are a few competing re builders because it represents by far the better economic repair hence another reason why the problem is seen more in the independent world than franchised.

I cant tell you what causes the problem, other than what i have already posted on the matter. We have customers with early '9's that come in year after year accumulating significant mileage without problem and IMO will unlikely ever have the problem. I have yet to find the problem on late 450BHP '9, mostly occurs in early #VIN 450BHP '9's (although clearly running low on oil damages any age engine). When diagnosed and perhaps after valvetrain has been ruled out, most owners are (totally understandably) in denial and a few don't get repaired but are traded-in (hence why i advise pre purchase inspection). On the ones we come across which we repair, after strip / inspection the piston pin is sloppy in con-rod small end. The small end doesn't look badly worn but the pin will rock in the bearing ever-so-slightly. The pin is also often too loose in piston boss, the piston rings are worn and commonly the oil scraper ring is doing nothing. Finally, but no means least, the liner has gone oval to the extent the piston will not rotate in the bore, and just past a little rotation the piston locks up in the bore completely. All of these in some way can be argued to produce the tick after heat soak / differing expansion rates.

Its important not to blow the problem out of proportion (sorry OP, i know this doesn't help you), because in terms of failure rate, its low, and mostly the problem is isolated to older cars in my experience at least. Because its more likely this age / value car is now sold through independent seller or private than franchised, is why a pre purchase inspection is advised. If car is bought via dealer, there is the approved used scheme as the safety net for aftersales care. Meaning that in my opinion, it is worth spending the extra to buy the car from franchised dealer over independent.
 
  #35  
Old 10-23-2014, 04:51 PM
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I did some searching on this and from what I gather a lot of these failures seem to be linked to running the engine low on oil. I also ran into one post about the owner not letting the car properly warm up and the builder seemed to think it was a combination of the two -- low oil and not proper warm up. The tolerances on these aluminum engines are very tight when cold so if your the type to hop in and floor it, engine trouble is in your future. I'm not saying this is the definite answer, but the threads I read seem to talk about this as the root cause.
 
  #36  
Old 10-23-2014, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by dan87951 View Post
I did some searching on this and from what I gather a lot of these failures seem to be linked to running the engine low on oil. I also ran into one post about the owner not letting the car properly warm up and the builder seemed to think it was a combination of the two -- low oil and not proper warm up. The tolerances on these aluminum engines are very tight when cold so if your the type to hop in and floor it, engine trouble is in your future. I'm not saying this is the definite answer, but the threads I read seem to talk about this as the root cause.
you could well be right on the low oil front and combination idea.

Although at full dipstick I have sat through a fair few thermal shock durability tests (there is a suite of about 5 different types of test), starts at below freezing point and immediately goes to peak torque until fully warm, then gets thermally shocked back down to freezing point and the fun starts again, over and over, for a few hours - engines flew through that so i'm not certain this type of abuse is root cause, but yeah, a careful warm up is always advised too.
 
  #37  
Old 10-26-2014, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike bamford rose View Post
Indeed, condolences (if his is a base engine issue) to the OP. To help avoid the situation where prospective purchasers turn into owners with a problem is the reason i recently went vocal on the subject over on PH, until then the problem has been known about, but probably mainly due to not having a public platform like me, other re-builders except through dialog with owners, have not disclosed the exact mode of failure widely. I have seen enough guys (and wish to see no more) who after saving for years to buy their dream car, find a bill more than half its value is waiting. I cant do too much to help owners already with the problem, but at least i can advise a pre purchase inspection is imperative for every prospective owner.

I cant speak for US other than i know of and am in communication with 4 owners presently with the same sounding issue, and over the last years probably had about 10 US owners contact me directly with a video clip with same sounding issue. We have repaired about 7 UK cars with the issue, had engines shipped to us from Germany, France and Singapore with the issue. Its quite common in UK classifieds to see a few older '9's with adverts stating 'new engine fitted' to cars i'm unaware of previously, and most likely its either the tick or failed big end bearing (due to running low on oil) the culprit. We have probably repaired about 10 V12's due to low oil mode of failure. If same in the US as UK, cars with this problem are probably outside the dealer network anyway due to age, and at least in UK, dealers rarely rebuild engines anyway because they are not trained to, they simply pick a refurbished unit off the shelf, hence why there are a few competing re builders because it represents by far the better economic repair hence another reason why the problem is seen more in the independent world than franchised.

I cant tell you what causes the problem, other than what i have already posted on the matter. We have customers with early '9's that come in year after year accumulating significant mileage without problem and IMO will unlikely ever have the problem. I have yet to find the problem on late 450BHP '9, mostly occurs in early #VIN 450BHP '9's (although clearly running low on oil damages any age engine). When diagnosed and perhaps after valvetrain has been ruled out, most owners are (totally understandably) in denial and a few don't get repaired but are traded-in (hence why i advise pre purchase inspection). On the ones we come across which we repair, after strip / inspection the piston pin is sloppy in con-rod small end. The small end doesn't look badly worn but the pin will rock in the bearing ever-so-slightly. The pin is also often too loose in piston boss, the piston rings are worn and commonly the oil scraper ring is doing nothing. Finally, but no means least, the liner has gone oval to the extent the piston will not rotate in the bore, and just past a little rotation the piston locks up in the bore completely. All of these in some way can be argued to produce the tick after heat soak / differing expansion rates.

Its important not to blow the problem out of proportion (sorry OP, i know this doesn't help you), because in terms of failure rate, its low, and mostly the problem is isolated to older cars in my experience at least. Because its more likely this age / value car is now sold through independent seller or private than franchised, is why a pre purchase inspection is advised. If car is bought via dealer, there is the approved used scheme as the safety net for aftersales care. Meaning that in my opinion, it is worth spending the extra to buy the car from franchised dealer over independent.
Thank you very much for this in depth insight on this issue. I'm pretty devastated right now. I don't know what to do at this point
 
  #38  
Old 04-02-2015, 10:16 AM
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Update

Took my car to an indy in town (the nearest Aston Martin shop is a few hundred miles away) that specializes in British cars. They were stumped on the actual problem without tearing down the engine. They contacted a few Aston Martin shops and were suggested to run a thicker oil (15w50). They ran that oil and called to let me know that the tick was gone. I picked up the car and drove it home. On my way home..........the ticking started.......
So they told me to monitor when I do drive it to see if the ticking behavior has changed in frequency at all. So basically I back to square one.


It seems the "resolution" has been trial and error with cars with this same issue. But it seems like I'm going to have to spend a ton of money just for a noise.........
 
  #39  
Old 04-02-2015, 08:56 PM
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What is the risk of you just drive with the tick?
 
  #40  
Old 04-02-2015, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jateshk View Post
What is the risk of you just drive with the tick?
Apparently there's no risk. It's just annoying. As soon as it starts I want to drive home and park it.
 
  #41  
Old 04-19-2015, 07:18 AM
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I thought I'd add to this post after I had some work done. New lifters and ticking is still there. Wondering if anyone else is having any luck on this issue. Also, at the risk of start a posting war, I'm not so sure I would jump to the conclusion that golden's (and my) problem is small end bearings. I'm just going by the clues and I can't think of anything in the lower end that would tick at half engine speed, unless the piston knows when to tick on every other stroke Also, seems like the pistons would be very quick to heat up, but this sound doesnt start for at least ten minutes of driving.
 
  #42  
Old 04-20-2015, 03:18 PM
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Update

Just wanted to give an update for this situation. I remembered when the shop said that after they changed the oil and added thicker oil they said the ticking had stopped. Said they drove it on the freeway, let it idle for an hour or so, and ran the AC. But when I brought it home it still ticked. So the other day I drove it out of town (about a 45 min trip). Got in town, no tick. Stopped at a car wash to do a clean up. Started the car, no tick. Went to an auto parts store a few minutes later. Started the car.....now it's ticking...

So then I remember them saying they ran the AC also. When I picked up the car the shop the AC was running so I turned it off. Halfway home it started ticking. Remembering that, I decided to turn the AC on full blast (AUTO).......the ticking goes away.....what??? Drove around for about an hour or more and little to no tick. And the times it did tick (triggers seem to be when slowing down and transmission going into the lower gears and when the engine is started after being driven for awhile) the tick immediately went away. I'm guessing it has something to do with the extra load on the engine?? Drove it again the next day, AC on full.......no tick........so weird. But since I'm in Cali, I can ride with the AC on full blast most of the time anyways. The mystery continues........
 
  #43  
Old 04-20-2015, 04:28 PM
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Sounds like it may be a wrist pin or rod bearing. A test for that is if you can get it to tick when almost coasting with ever so little throttle applied, like enough to barely maintain speed on a level surface.
 
  #44  
Old 05-01-2015, 03:44 AM
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I was excited to read the post about the ticking being related to the AC system. I ran out and jumped in the car and warmed it up for a few miles. Then flipped on the AC. damnit Tick is still there. Would have been nice if this was the case, but it doesnt look like its going to be that easy. One difference I've noticed for thegolden1's symptoms is that mine really never goes away. It may get a little quieter, but otherwise its fairly constant and predictable.

I'm having a hard time understanding oo7's test. If I just barely touch the throttle, what is the difference between that and just letting the car idle or letting it creep in gear? What would I be listening for? The tick to stay or go away? And what would it be demonstrating if I did notice this change?
 

Last edited by jjacksonphd; 05-01-2015 at 03:48 AM.
  #45  
Old 05-01-2015, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by jjacksonphd View Post
I was excited to read the post about the ticking being related to the AC system. I ran out and jumped in the car and warmed it up for a few miles. Then flipped on the AC. damnit Tick is still there. Would have been nice if this was the case, but it doesnt look like its going to be that easy. One difference I've noticed for thegolden1's symptoms is that mine really never goes away. It may get a little quieter, but otherwise its fairly constant and predictable.

I'm having a hard time understanding oo7's test. If I just barely touch the throttle, what is the difference between that and just letting the car idle or letting it creep in gear? What would I be listening for? The tick to stay or go away? And what would it be demonstrating if I did notice this change?
jjacksonphd,
Sorry to mislead you to think it was AC related. It seems with the combination of the thicker oil and the ac running, this may be putting a heavier load on the engine to the point that it doesn't spin fast enough to "trigger" the ticking. I pressed my luck the other day and drove via saddle shifter. It ticked like normal, even with the ac on. So I put it back into normal gear and the ticking slowly went away. Really sad our cars are doing this but it appears that the oil/ac thing lessens mine a bit.
 

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