I am thinking of complimenting my Continental GT Speed with a used V12 DB11. I would like to understand the differences between the V12 and AMR variants. Of course the speed and handling are different, but I am curious if the price difference of a used AMR versus a used V12 is worth it or not. I am also curious about reliability. Owning a Bentley I have no issues on the odd 2-5k a year costs in maintaining a used high end car but are there any surprises in terms of gremlins with these Astons?

Thank you in advance,

Zissis

 

Buy a V12 DB11 and have it tuned by Velocity AP. Not much difference between the them other than cosmetics.

 

The changes to the DB11 AMR were much more than just the 30hp difference. They all contribute to the AMR feeling much more controlled and confidence inspiring during spirited driving. It can also actually put the power down and not just trigger traction control all the time.

• New rear subframe
• rear upper control arm bushings
• new shocks
• new anti roll bars

The exhaust has also been modified and the transmission mapping was recalibrated. Drive both back to back if you can. If you enjoy spirited driving, I think you'll find the AMR worth the premium.

 

All thanks to Matt Becker because of that mult-link mess on the rear. 90% of the owners aren't going on a track and pushing to feel the 20-30% stiffer bushings or redesigned subframe. Salesman 101.

 

Not true. The differences are largely just software updates for the sportier modes for the dampers, the transmission and the engine. Shocks are exactly the same. Both ARB on V12 and AMR have the same part numbers. The subframe is also exactly the same. AMR version does have slightly harder subframe bushings, and, other than the standard forged wheels and the cosmetic changes (smoked lenses and AMR logos here and there), that’s it.

 

This is correct. The AMR was in the main just a software update, to make the V12 feel more exciting in the sportier modes. It did have nice light forged wheels though, and slightly harder subframe bushes.

Be careful with the ZF8HP70, it’s rated to 700Nm, the reason the V12 in DB11 was pegged to that number, even in AMR form. The extra 30hp from the factory AMR tune (608hp to 639hp) is from hanging onto the 700Nm for an extra 500rpm. The exact same engine is used in DBSS with a different calibration and it developed 900Nm, the twin scroll twin turbo 5.2 V12 engines genuine power was possible as DBSS got the ZF8HP95 which can take 950Nm. The last versions of the DBSS had 770hp, again using the exact same engine, just a different factory calibration.

So tuning the V12 is easy, but ideally you need an uprated trans.

 

AM dealership sell the remapped engine tuning of the AMR. If you buy a DB11 from an AM dealer, I bet you can twist their arm for an included tune.

 

Yes, that is exactly what I did when I bought mine, post all the due diligence to confirm that there really were no changes for the ‘AMR’ other than subframe bushes, wheels and cosmetics.

Shameful marketing BS from Aston Martin, which continues to this day with the facelifted DB11 V8 (sorry the all new DB12…)

 

To me the V12 just feels special. It would be hard to pay more for the new DB12 with the V8 as compared to an AMR or standard DB11 with the V12. There is going to be a nice Black AMR DB11 going to Barrett Jackson for their next auction. Might be one to watch for.

 

1) V12 sounds glorious
2) A friend who is in our local owners group has the DB11 AMR package tuned and I love the aesthetics and sound.
3) The power he makes from he custom tune is just north of 800 and its hard to keep up.
4) As for reliability......TBD hahaha not sure if he has upgraded the Trans like was mentioned above to handle all the torque.

 

V12 is V12

 

For anyone interested in that blown Aston V12, the AE31 (Aston Martin Engine # 31) as fitted to DB11, DBSS and a handful of more limited stuff (Vantage, Speedster) 2016-2023, some info

It is a fabulous and very well engineered engine, and does not get the respect and acclaim it deserves, partly because of timing, partly bad luck, but mainly bad decisions from bad management.

The reasons

1. It was launched in the DB11, which while beautiful, many considered it not such an instant design classic as the DB9.

2. It was downsized (5935cc to 5204cc) redesign of the long serving, well developed and much loved Ford bankrolled n/a V12 and it was turbocharged. Being turbo put a lot of puristy Aston folk off, even though 5 litre plus blown engines were nothing new for AM.

3. A huge heavy V12 launched when the world was already downsizing to smaller lighter configurations and just beginning the move away from the IC engine altogether.

4. The V12 should not have been launched first. The AMG V8 powered version of the DB11, launched just over a year later had an extra years worth of chassis development (stiffer bushings, retuned dampers) and was 100kg lighter in the nose, was over $20k cheaper and had almost the same torque as the very heavily sandbagged V12. So of course the V8 car felt just as fast, and way sharper. After driving the V8 and talking to AM engineers at its launch who freely admitted a bit of tweaking and chassis development (because that’s what happens…) all the fickle journos who had so loved the V12 a year earlier then slagged it off. They should have launched the AMG V8 first as the ‘cooking’ version, then the higher end own-engine V12 later.

5. AM made the very stupid mistake of panicking when V12 sales fell as a result of the success of the V8, they said they were ‘withdrawing’ the V12 and ‘replacing’ it with the ‘new’ DB11 AMR. This was both stupid and cynical, the AMR was 99.99% exactly the same car as the DB11. All AM did was copy the hardware chassis tweaks made for the V8, these being slightly harder subframe bushes. AM also ‘claimed’ a very slightly (0.5mm or 40thou) thicker front ARB, even though this difference would be in manufacturing tolerance for such a component, and part numbers remained the same. Apart from forged wheels, smoked rear lamps, dark headlamp internals, and some garish AMR logos, it’s the exact same suite of hardware, the same car. The differences for AMR were essentially thus just new firmware maps for the sportier driveline and suspension modes, ie recalibrated engine, transmission and dampers. The 30hp higher peak on the AMR came from holding onto that heavily limited 700Nm of torque for another 500rpm at the top end.

All that ‘confusion’ really damaged the original V12 with it being essentially disregarded as a failure within 2 years of its own launch. Watch any later moronic youtuber video or later review.

6. Perhaps the biggest mistake - the specification of the ZF8HP70 in all versions of DB11. This version of the ZF8 was rated at 700Nm maximum (hence the name) This was fine for the AMG 4.0 V8, which at that time was maxing out at around 685Nm, but meant that the V12, even in AMR tune, had to be heavily torque limited, to just 700Nm. The beancounter cost cutting, cheaping out on the transmission meant that AML could never, during its entire run in the DB11, really differentiate their mighty, in house, 5.2 V12 from the much cheaper AMG 4.0 V8.

Only when the far more expensive DBS Suoerleggerra was launched in 2018 did we get to see what the V12 was really made of. It had the ZF8HP95 and the otherwise exact same AE31’s twin, twin scroll turbos could finally be allowed some boost. In DBSS, the AE31’s Torque went from 700 to 900Nm. Power went to 726hp and the last versions (DBS ultimate) left the factory (again, exact same AE31 engine assembly part number) with 770hp. I’d lay odds that the aftermarket, esp in USA could easily take this motor to 1000hp with minimal changes, perhaps just new fuel pumps and turbos.

7. Traction. The front engined rear drive DB11 and DBS always struggled to get their power down. They were both traction limited. It meant fairly ordinary numbers for those who cared. This was partly due to the continued used of those awful hard Bridgestone tyres, a hangover from the Ford days. Modern sticky tyres improve things greatly.

Fact is, the AE31 was and is a beast, an absolute mother of a motor. It was designed from the outset with a very high quality forged crank, forged rods and forged pistons. It is immensely strong and immensely smooth, even in low boost excellent throttle response DB11 form, and with most of the exhaust gases bypassing the turbos to limit the power it makes a fabulous exhaust noise, despite being turbocharged, as well as an intoxicating intake roar under heavy acceleration and high rpm. It is a true Aston Martin Engine.

https://youtu.be/0IREtCujKJk?si=CPV4-mams6usnhqh

 

@calinours

GREAT writeup! Thanks for this background. When I (finally) found Aston at the top of my bucket list of cars to own, I thought the DB11 to be a very good looking car in the Aston lineup. As my weakness is 12 cyl engines, my DB11 had to be the V12, even though I know the V8 backwards and forwards from my AMG GTS ownership.

I am about 6 months into ownership (2018 MY North American version) and I find the entire car fascinating - looks, sound, performance, etc. As with all of my cars, and as a mechanical engineer, my passion is to "master" all technical aspects of the car. I am finding the Aston the most challenging, so far, because so little technical data is released to the public by Aston.

I look forward to your future posts and bringing more great information from the mother ship.

 

Thank you. By way of intro of myself to this forum, I am indeed a UK national with a very deep and enduring liking of and interest in the US of A where I understand most of the inhabitants of this forum originate. The thing I love most about USA culture is the positive ‘can do’ attitude. This is unique, completely different to most of Europe. It means that the USA is a nation of born engineers, problem solvers, who can individually and collectively achieve anything when minds are set. Look at the overwhelming historical evidence….

As a fellow Mech Eng (30yrs PG, in aero engines, automotive R&D and last 10yr offshore wind) I too share similar intent to understand as much as possible about the cars. I own three AM, a 1980 V8 Oscar India (slowly being tastefully ‘restomodded’ - it has a Dodge Viper manual gearbox for example, used for sunday pubs, events and shows), a modified 2011 V8VS (fun days and track days) and a 2018 DB11 V12 with AMR upgrade (for when I actually need to go anywhere distant in summer, in winter I use a Rangie..)

I’m happy to post advice about any to owners or prospective owners.

I forgot to mention the other issue the V12 had, legislation. It was designed with port injection which meant while it would keep its inlet valves clean and is great for longevity (no walnut shell blasting needed possibly unlike the AMG 4.0 M177 when it gets a few miles…) it would be difficult and expensive to meet Euro 7 and other next-gen global emissions regs, and the problems with so many potential markets (eg China) taxing anything over 4 litres to death.

Happy new year!

Calinours