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Chris Harris: Ferrari Are Cheats

 
  #46  
Old 03-18-2011, 09:53 PM
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They've been doing it for years. No surprise here. My 355 spider ran dead even with my wifes E46M3 vert Smg.
 

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  #47  
Old 03-20-2011, 09:44 AM
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Looks like Porsche is doing the same. 2011 Porsche 911 Turbos S - 530 HP, 3500LBS, 0-60 - 2.6 sec, 10.7 @129mph.

Buggati Veyron fast?
 
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Old 03-20-2011, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by madflava View Post
Looks like Porsche is doing the same. 2011 Porsche 911 Turbos S - 530 HP, 3500LBS, 0-60 - 2.6 sec, 10.7 @129mph.

Buggati Veyron fast?
I would assume that someone who understands rwhp would understand trap speed. And those numbers are on the really good side most of them have tested slower.
 
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Old 03-21-2011, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by madflava View Post
Looks like Porsche is doing the same. 2011 Porsche 911 Turbos S - 530 HP, 3500LBS, 0-60 - 2.6 sec, 10.7 @129mph.

Buggati Veyron fast?
The Turbo S with the PDK, can hit high 2 second 0-60 times from what I've seen and heard from friends that test drove them, Bugatti Veyron fast they are not. The Veyron traps ~140-142 mph runs 10.0-10.2 and weighs in at around 4,200 lbs.
 
  #50  
Old 03-21-2011, 02:25 AM
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Originally Posted by av2 View Post
I going to play devil's advocate. So Chris Harris decided to confess after all of these years?
2 secs to 100mph, that's some major tuning on a 360.
He assumed the 599 was adjusted for handling. Did he see a lowered car with a more aggressive camber and toe settings?
No, he's been reporting Ferrari's tactics for quite some time.
Ex:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2552

Did you catch eCOTY around Nov-Dec? This was published somewhere in that issue.
"Notable Absentee: Ferrari 599 GTO
At times, Ferrari can seem like a 'glass half empty' sort of company. Having two Ferraris in the Car of the Year, the 458 Italia and the 599 GTO, would have meant one of them would end up a loser. So although we raved about this more focused, iconically badged 599, this 661bhp halfway house between the delectable standard model and the fabulous, track only 599XX, Ferrari declined the invitation, citing a lack of press cars. We offered to find an owner's car, but Ferrari said if we did they'd pull the 458..."
On the day that Evo went to a wet track, a Ferrari crew were on hand to change the 458's tires:
http://img52.imageshack.us/f/evo17.jpg/
Both the GT3 RS and GT2 RS were left to contend with the wet track on their Cup tires.

Nick Trott, another of Evo's editors, can vouch for Harris. Sometime after the GTO/GT2 RS twin-test (in which a customer Ferrari was used), he published a "falling out" he'd had with a major manufacturer, though he wouldn't specifically name which one:
"'I've fallen out with a major manufacturer. Press officer wouldn't speak to me at the Paris show. Arguments rumble on about using non-press cars in features."
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/xforums...6&mid=41970&hm=

C&D can also vouch for Harris's contention that Ferrari interferes when customer cars not approved by them might be used:
"a funny thing happened as we began contacting the 11 men who had F50s parked in their garages. Either they recited what sounded like a prepared FNA public-relations speech, which always began, 'Numbers have nothing to do with Ferraris. The cars are about soul and emotion and a rich heritage.' Or the F50 lessee enthusiastically replied, 'Sure, let's do it, where do you want to test?'
Then, among those who said yes, one of two things would happen in short order. Once we'd reserved a track and the test drew near, they'd stop returning our calls and faxes. All contact would cease. That happened four times. Or an even stranger response would manifest. The lessee would sheepishly call to announce: 'I'd still like to let you test my car, but I can't. Fer­rari doesn't think it's a good idea.'"
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/..._f50-road_test

C&D can also vouch for the use of 2 different test cars in its 599 article:
"For testing, Ferrari supplied a different 599 than this one, although equipped the same. Minded by a couple of Puma-shod technicians..."
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...rano-road_test
Download the spec sheet on the test car and you'll see it wasn't even a US-spec car (odometer reading in km's). Their photographer gives more insight about that test:
"Back when the 599 came out I was assigned to photograph it for a story, Ferrari brought two cars, one for us to do numbers testing and one for the photoshoot/driving impressions. A group of technicians spent hours mapping the test car, setting up the launch control and brought Rafaelle de Simone, their factory test driver to drive it and show the writer how to get the best times out of the car (despite it being a no brainer with launch control and paddle shifters). They also only let the writer do three runs for the acceleration tests. The car did something like 3.2s to 60 which was much faster than it should have been given it's supposed power to weight.
We drove off with the other car for a multi-day trip into the mountains, but were forbidden to do any numbers testing on it."
http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/1557508-post20.html

As for the 360M, here is its performance as listed back in the day:

If you think tuning isn't involved when a 360 matches a Murcielago for 100-150 (and beats a 996 GT2), then I don't know what else there is to say. This would be akin to GM providing a ZR1 that's as fast as a Koenigsegg, which to my knowledge, has never been provided. I seem to recall that Autocar's Steve Sutcliffe also wondered how that car could have been so rapid, when asked by a reader how the subsequently tested 360CS could be so much slower (100-150 in 13.8s vs the "standard car's" 11.3).

Speaking of Sutcliffe, he can vouch for Harris's claim that Ferrari has asked ahead of a comparo to see where it would take place, so they can send a car ahead and set the car just right (again, note that 2 cars were provided):

Check the video of the actual event, and watch @ 1:34:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/b...ar-2010-video/

What other manufacturer brings their own fuel to a test? And is it unreasonable to assume the ECU has been tuned to make the best of it?

Speaking of possibly tuned ECU's, why does Ferrari feel the need to bring equipment to plug into a car's diagnostics port? Ex: Evo's test of the Scuderia:

Their comments from that test:
"When we test any other car, it is delivered to the office and gets collected a few days later. Not a Ferrari. Their cars come from the factory with a support crew, which today includes an engineer, a technician and a test driver to check that the car is as it should be and offer advice on how to get the best out of it. The surprise is that today the test driver is a bloke called Marc Gene. Yup, Ferrari’s F1 test driver will do a couple of laps of the West Circuit before handing over to me."
http://www.evo.co.uk/trackdays/track..._scuderia.html

As for the 599 being adjusted for handling, that's entirely possible. A crew were on hand for that test too. In a failed attempt to beat the Gallardo's time, they changed out the front wheels to optional 20in rims to try to reduce understeer:
http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evoc...b_fiorano.html

I can't think of another manufacturer that has changed out only front wheels in another test.

There are other examples of this (Ferrari crew in support of the 599 @ Auto Motor und Sport's high speed comparo, crew support for the F430S vs ZR1 in French Sport Auto, crew support for the California in Car's PCOTY test, 2 Californias provided for Evo testing, etc.), but surely this is enough to prove Harris isn't pulling stuff outta his ***, no?
 

Last edited by Guibo; 03-21-2011 at 02:28 AM.
  #51  
Old 03-21-2011, 06:58 AM
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i guess it makes sense that the manufacturers want to get the best possible test results and reviews for their products. i wouldnt doubt that there are others that do it as well, just maybe not to this extreme. but bottom line is, it is deceiving the customer. if we are the customer, we are making our purchasing decisions on many factors, including test reviews and results. and when we drive our cars, we expect to achieve similar results. whenever there is a lack of transparency, ultimately it will come back to haunt the manufacturer as this thread has demonstrated. kudos to chris harris for having the ***** to come out and give us some insight.
 

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  #52  
Old 03-21-2011, 09:24 AM
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^^ This is exactly how I feel. Its deceiving to the customer.
 
  #53  
Old 03-21-2011, 11:20 AM
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By Ray Wert from Jalopnik - Ferrari officially responds:

One month after Chris Harris attacked Ferrari for juicing tests in his must-read rant found exclusively here on Jalopnik, we've finally heard an official reaction from the Italian automaker.
And by "we," I mean other auto journalists who've have been asking nonstop for a comment from Ferrari. One month later, Stefano Lai, Ferrari's communications director, has deigned to respond — telling The Telegraph's Andrew English that Ferrari claims Harris's charges are untrue and then engages in an old Italian trick around since before the Renaissance: Deny reality:
"For most Ferrari owners these things are not important. I think that Chris has done more harm to himself than Ferrari."
Somehow, Ferrari, I don't think so.
For starters, and based completely on anecdotal evidence, Harris' piece for us has elevated his stature as an independent journalist higher than it was pre-rant. Just as an example, Dan Neil, the Pulitzer Prize-winning auto critic for the Wall Street Journal called Harris' piece "important and highly revealing."
At this month's Geneva Motor Show, Harris and I were both besieged with questions about the story. I've also now heard dozens of stories from other journalists who've experienced similar nonsense to that highlighted by Harris when engaging in instrumented tests with Ferrari press cars.



(Ray Wert and Chris Harris in front of the Ferrari stand at the Geneva Motor Show.
)


Judging by the emails I've received from numerous Ferrari owners — three considered by Ferrari to be on the hundred-or-so-person A-list offered a chance to purchase any new supercar the Italian automaker produces, no matter how exclusive — that our Harris piece makes them question whether or not to purchase a new Ferrari.
The common theme expressed by them — and the dozens of non-A-list owners — is that while every tenth of a second does matter, it's equally important for Ferrari to be honest about how it gets those extra tenths in the press cars that supposedly reflect what customer vehicles will achieve.
Is that too much to ask for out of an automaker? We think not.
 
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Old 03-21-2011, 04:41 PM
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Those numbers for the 360 border on insane, they just are not nor do they feel that fast.
 
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Old 03-22-2011, 01:49 PM
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Interesting article. I guess everybody has been doing it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/...icroscope.html
 
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Old 03-22-2011, 06:34 PM
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This article is FIRE ! I want to know how this all ends
 
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Old 03-22-2011, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by germeezy1 View Post
Those numbers for the 360 border on insane, they just are not nor do they feel that fast.
Yeh thats plain bs, there is no way a 360 is pulling those numbers.. forget "tune" wonder what other work they did to that engine since it's trapping at speeds a 430 does

I love Ferrari's response to Chris... haha what a bunch of bs, they know they've been caught with their pants down.
 
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Old 03-22-2011, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Surfer View Post
Yeh thats plain bs, there is no way a 360 is pulling those numbers.. forget "tune" wonder what other work they did to that engine since it's trapping at speeds a 430 does

I love Ferrari's response to Chris... haha what a bunch of bs, they know they've been caught with their pants down.
I aspired to be a future 360 owner but now that they are priced very attractively I realize that they are nowhere near as fast as they were made out to be.
 
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Old 03-23-2011, 02:28 PM
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The actual real world numbers are academic. The real question is if the car doesn't meet or exceed the tested numbers, would owners dump their F cars? Probably not.

CW
 
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Old 03-23-2011, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by CornersWell View Post
The actual real world numbers are academic. The real question is if the car doesn't meet or exceed the tested numbers, would owners dump their F cars? Probably not.

CW
I don't think anyone would dump his F car for this, they are still awesome to drive, regardless of what numbers say. And there's more in them than just acceleration numbers IMO.

My P car is way faster than, say, an F360, but I bet it's still much more boring to drive than the F car.

This is why I hate Ferrari as a company...why in hell do they act this way when they have no need (IMO) to desperately demonstrate their cars are the fastest out there?


When Chris Harris tested the Scuderia, he found it to be an incredible car to drive, regardless of the numbers...
 

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