Thanks Scott. I am curious, you mention flat on throttle a couple times here and a common theme throughout this thread has been don't lift, which is generally true for all cars so folks are simply stating the obvious or the message with the 911 is REALLY and SERIOUSLY, don't lift.

For example, let's assume a medium speed, 3rd or 4th gear turn. In a sedan, I'll get my braking done (before initial turn-in or some trail as appropriate depending on the turn) and then get back on the throttle so the car is settled for the first half of the turn. Up through apex, I'll use the throttle to steer the car -- standard stuff -- so this of course means lifting ever so slightly to get the car to turn in a little tighter. Does this standard technique not apply for the 911?

Thanks again,

 

They say a good driver can drive any car quickly, as the same principles apply to all; acceleration transfers weight to the back, braking transfers weight to the front. FE/RWD allow you to not drive as well and still be pretty quick (less understeer, and no engine in the backyard waiting to bite). It's really all about exploiting each car's attributes and getting around their weaknesses. 911s are better under straight line braking & acceleration, and weaker under turn-in (didn't say cornering) than FE/RWD cars. Some form of trailbraking under turn-in is required if you wanna be quick with a 911, as this remedies it's inherent weakness, by allowing you to rotate the car; and plays on the 911's strength by straighten out the exit allowing you to use all that rear grip to full potential earlier.

 

it would appear based on above statement you dont really drive 911's well at all.

you can trail brake a 911, but if you maintain trailing throttle you will spin.

as soon as you turned in, squeeze the throttle, and for most turns, you would be at WOT by apex. if you add throttle AFTER apex, it's way too late in 911's.

 

amen....
after 10k trackmiles on 911's in 2 years, you will BEGIN to understand the car and you get faster and faster and more fun.

 

many are concerned about carrying speed into the turn. i think it may be symantics, but carrying speed INTO the turn is meaningless. the only thing that matters is your EXIT speed.

it's faster if you slow down, and then accelerate early.
slow down is relative. i dont mean park the car.

 

A GT3 (assuming track day R compound tyres and a dry, warm circuit) is a pretty benign animal with massive grip. The advice about trail braking and making sure you're at full throttle from apex is in the context of "how to drive a 911 fast" rather than how to avoid falling of the track!

I did you a diagram!

The point to trail the brakes to and the point you are back flat on the throttle should be very close to each other. The exact position will vary depending on the corner. The key is that you are using the weight distribution of the car to your advantage.

If the car in the diagram was as a Ferrari 430 or a Lotus Exige there would be less (or no) trail braking and an intermediate phase with the throttle balanced (part throttle). In theory, the point at which you are back flat on the throttle would be after the 911 driver!

 

997gt3 has a tendency to push with factory street alignment. most of us actually run more front camber than rear to fix that. in medium speed turns, the car shouldn't push unless you got into it too hot. if not, then most likely it's alignment/tire/set up issue. slow turns, yes, it pushes, and it SHOULD push. if the car is neutral in slow speed turns, most likely you will be lose on high speed turns. just my two cents.

most pro drivers prefer cars with mild push.

 

Ding Ding Ding Ding we have another winner! Absolutely key!

The weight in the rear (compared to other chassis) is a
natural, built in, invitation to be on throttle even before
apex. The maintainance throttle is "designed into" the
engineering, just don't work against that, work as far
with that as you can and use it.

Deetz.

 

Right.

Exit speed equates to faster speed on the following staight which is key.
You need to design your corner stragety with this in mind.

tw

 

Hey guys,

This is a very interesting discussion and despite the fact that I'm a complete newbie when it comes to driving 911's and GT3's fast, I still want to take part of it.
Because of my background (born and raised in Finland in the ****tiest weather and road conditions on the planet ) I have the benefit of possessing quite good car control skills. I used to drive rwd cars (mostly BMW's) with no electrical nannies on the slippery roads and that I can tell you, teaches one good car control.
I've had the GT3 for about 9 months and done some 8k miles with it, including 10 DE weekends.
Until the last two DE's, I was rather lost with the car. After a couple DE's I thought I knew how to drive it but in reality, I wasn't even close.

It took me another 4-5 DE's, a couple of close calls, a spin, a day of drifting the car on a the skidpad and some good advice from great 911 drivers (instructors) and (this I think plays a major role here) I got the car aligned to Kussmaul specs.

I allways had the ability to feel what was happening with the car, I just didn't know how to use it in the GT3. Also a lot of the times, my "wrong" driving techniques put me into situations where I doubt even M.Schumacher could've gotten out. Situations which good drivers never even get into.


The last DE I did, I had a blast. It was raining and I had terrible tires but man did I learn a lot. I was trail braking deep into the turns and throttle steering out. The most important thing I noticed (learnt) was that the smoother I was with the transition from braking to throttle, the better the car behaved and the faster I got out of the turns.

Now I just gotta get a lot more seat time with good instructors and hopefully some day I can drive the car fast like you guys!!

 

I have to agree, I dont think you should trail brake much in the 911, just my personal opinion though.

I think a lot of people rely on the brakes TOO much and end up overbraking all the time. Porsche brakes are so good, they can really make you bad.

 

I think the varying levels of experience are starting to make a difference about trailbraking advice...Going further with Heavy's advice, what seems like "too little" or "a lot" of rotation is very subjective. When you get to the point where a few of us are (Heavy included), the amount of rotation/use of the technique varies with the exact situation/track conditions etc. Just remember that while people are telling you that the Tbraking is good, remember that it is only in moderation! It IS however still very important for what you use it for...


There isnt much else to say as most of it has been mentioned...but, for one small point...you will be better than the "line". This means that you make your line and no one else. YOU are what has to feel the car, and manuver it to where it feels it should be...it is a feeling which takes A LOT of practice, and comes with tons of seat time and instruction. Im not saying the "line" isnt there persay...just that depending on the car, its driver, and the exact conditions at that exact situation (including other cars in a race scenario), your line can change drastically...in a race, the only line is the one you have/make for yourself!

 

Good stuff. This thread has given me some stuff to think about and work with. Thanks so far, and hopefully it'll generate more good discussion. Sorry I can't add much value to the discussion since I don't have any track experience w/ the 911.

 

IMHO 911's just requre more attention to weight management then other cars. If you are anything less then smooth with your inputs the weight balance of the car can exagerate your actions and cause trouble, especially in front to rear transitions. Common driving errors that one can get away with in many other cars (up to a point that is) are not as easy to get away with in a 911 (or old school beetle I would assume).

The allways trailbrake in a 911 arguments need to first focus on what they are defining as "trailbraking". Some here seem to be refering to a smooth blending of getting off the brakes (critical in a 911... jumping off the brakes quickly will unbalance the car due to the weight balance) turning in, and balancing the car... all the way to being on the brakes from turn in to apex. There are times for both techniques depending on the corner, but I would suggest that the first one isn't trailbraking, rather is just good driving, and the latter is an extreme used corners that you are looking to scrub speed for the next turn (linked turns where there is no acceleration apex out). This is nothing unique to a 911, it is just important to be as smooth as possible.

Acceleration out of turns / dont lift comments are also not unique to the 911. Of course in any car you need to add power as traction allows out of a turn. Abruptly lifting will unsettle any car and cause problems. 911's have a lot of traction coming out of a corner that can be utilized, allowing in many cases to have more acceleration coming out of a turn then other cars, which of course will also exagerate any mistakes.

One of the great joys of driving 911's on the track is that they do reward good driving techique (as do all Porsches)... but as Jeremy Clarkson said in his caymen revew "drive it like a heffalump it will respond like a heffalump"

Don't over think things, relax, be smooth and everything will be great on track.

Marc

 

This thread has gotten better and I can tell that the last couple of posts come from guys who really know what they are talking about. Any input that allows earlier full throttle application will usually yield the best results and lap time improvement. Trail braking and trailing throttle over steer are useful advanced driving techniques that can improve lap times in certain circumstances and are used almost unconsciously by experienced drivers. Despite the mostly valid arguments espoused in this thread I have seen too many beautiful 911s hit the wall, usually backwards after the rear steps out on them and they are unable to catch it in time. One final piece of advice for the rookies: Don’t trail brake in a 911 going into high speed turns, try it in low speed corners and hairpins first and then work up to medium speed corners until your footwork gets really smooth and you get comfortable using the technique”.
Manny