So they had the right tyres this time but the wrong driver and presumably the wrong car too?

Would it be true to say that no stock cars beat the GTR? Would it be true to say that several GT3s finished a lot further down the field? Thank you, I rest my case.

Where did you finish Desmond?

 

Wrong driver? You must have missed the part where I said this is that same guy that beat Steve Millen at buttonwillow in a Z06 by one second.

Steve Millen, you know, the pro driver, former nissan test driver.

You can really only judge the people in front as they are the only ones really gunning for the overall, and have the best drivers. People in Z06's and GT3's way back in the field do this for fun and for charitable causes, not for a win.

Tony Swan has done the 1 lap for several consecutive years now, and has been to Road America at least a few times already, he's campainged several different cars and always done well considering the cars he had vs the competition. The driver in the GT3 had never driven Road America, and was gaining many seconds every lap.


So which are we supposed to beleive, that Tony Swan is good enough to beat Steve Millen by a second in the same car when Millen can run crazy times in the GT-R, or that he's a scrub? Either way I think this is pretty revealing.

So, as you can see, you have no case. This 1 lap is more legit than any mag test we've seen by far. So just watch and see what happens.

I'm pretty sure I would finish pretty high if I was doing it, I have some pretty good lapping credits to my name. How about you, where have you finished?

 

Not true- some will have been to every event, even recently. There are practices at many of the one lap tracks before the events, and many of the top drivers will have recently been to all those tracks, and even have setup info particular to the tracks. Where as Tony probably hasn't driven the track in a year or more and likely never drove it in a GTR. And some people have never seen the track period.

Tony is driving someone else's completely stock car. He's almost always in one of the only be the only unmodified cars at the event; what are the modifications, alignments, etc of the cars he's racing against?

In the last few years we've seen a box-stock viper ACR dominate multiple 650 hp modified vipers and vettes driven by semi-pro drivers. We've seen a standard Noble tie (and usually beat) a modified 600 hp Noble driven by a driver who visited and practiced at every track prior to the event. What conclusion do you draw from those facts? The fastest cars always go out first at one lap- if the track was damp or dirty the first batch of cars goes and dries a line, often allowing later "slow" cars deep in the field to turn faster times. Or if it starts to rain or cools off the tail of the grid goes slower- the event takes hours to run through all the cars...

One lap is 75% driver- how good, how prepared, how fast do you get up to speed (on cold tires, etc), how hard are you pushing, how tired are you that day (a huge factor). Even when you're racing in the event it's tricky to judge all the factors to figure out what the fastest cars are, and the fastest cars rarely win. The other variables (driver, track, etc) drown out the cars themselves to such an extent that you just can't tell. Trying to bench race, from your computer screen 1000 miles away, and thinking you're drawing meaningful conclusions is total fantasy IMHO. You'll be able to say "that's not slow", but beyond that it's very tough...

 

The top drivers have not been to every track, nor do they go to them all, because they change almost every year. Both the 996 GT3 driver nor Leh Keen had ever been to Road America. And they've both done multiple one laps. The tracks change every year or two and most get testing at one maybe two tracks before the event.

Attrition is the reason you see stock vipers and lesser modded cars finish ahead in the overall standings. The modded cars (especially vettes and vipers) tend to break. This is why Davia has won so many times. The 996 TT doesnt skip a beat even modded. There have been faster cars, but not faster ones that stay together and are reliable and all around cars. DNF's are what kill you in this event according to the people that have done them.

Many drivers are in pairs and someone is driving someone elses car at some point for the most part. Point being if Tony can lap faster than a Pro (steve millen) driver "IN SOMEONE ELSES Z06" then he's fit for competition. Leh's driving someone elses Cayman. The Viper driver is a engineer for Dodge, but it's not his car either.

FACT of the matter is that this is still a better gauge than yahoos jumping in the car for magazine selling articles to be printed.

 

Agreed, Dez. The second sentence pretty much sums it up.

Kind of OT, but goes along with the thread. Here are some pictures and one video Leh sent me of the GTR. (It's short, but oh well . .)

 

embed not working

 

Try again

You might have to click on it.

 

One second on a track like Road America is equivalent to about 10 car lengths. Three laps, 4 sec. faster, is almost 50 car lengths. The GT3 was so far behind it finish tomorrow. That is the real world.

 

Just as you missed mentioning that Ian Stewart (GT3 driver) is the 2007 SCCA national champion. The other GT3 driver is an SCCA official, race instructor and founder of Cannon Fodder Racing.

Sounds like a real novice. No, wait, that's right, he's a champion sports car racer.


And the GTR beat the GT3 despite it having a sportscar champion driving it.

Car doesn't look that standard either. The wheels certainly aren't. Can we see confirmation that this car is stock.



Porsche lost again.

 

I'm sorry, but you are mistaken. I can name drivers from last year's field that ran every track prior to the event for practice.

I would say consistency, not attrition. And yes I've run one lap. While some of the modded cars do break, it's far more common for a driver to make a mistake (spin) or have a off day or simply not be as good as the driver in front of him. The way the points system works you will never make those points up...

You're welcome to sit behind your computer and read whatever you want to into these times. The fact remains that but because of drivers and other variables this is one of the least perfect yardsticks measuring a car's performance that I can think of. To win it the whole package needs to be fast, consistent and reliable, but that's about all you can say.

 

since a fellow 6ers started this thread, i guess i'd chime in... haha we meet again HC! deep down inside you know GTR is faster than 997gt3 or TT on tracks. i don't care what kinda excuses you or others got, but i have yet to see 997TT beaten GTR on any sorta track or curcuit.

 

And Leh Keen is driving a 420 hp Cayman, LOOK THAT NAME UP!
And Danny Popp is driving a 400+ hp 2200 lb GTp LOOK THAT NAME UP!
Chris winkler is driving the ACR LOOK THAT NAME UP!

Point being there is a similarly hp'd cayman with a pro driver in it that the GT-R was able to beat, and other cars that have scca national champs and pro racers and test engineers in them. If you think beating them is a walk in the park no matter what they're driving,


But of course you dont know any better. Tony Swan can drive and has placed well and won classes with other cars in the past.

 

See that's where you are pulling for straws, and missing. I could care less about overall, which you keep trying to bring into the equation. I'm simply talking about drivers, who have no agenda driving on the same track same day under same conditions with equal or lesser knowledge of a track, and still potentially faster. Individual tests only.


You can keep trying to come up with whatever you want, maybe the GT-R will be much faster at the next track, I guess we'll have to see. But the so easy grandma (and fanboy) can drive it is getting slapped down since with someone who CAN drive in it, it's not much faster than a previous generation 911 with someone else who can drive and doesnt know the track.


The odds were against the GT3 no matter how you try and stack it up, both experienced drivers, GT3 driver had no previous experience on said track.


And like I said ALL OF THESE GUYS WOULD WIPE THE FLOOR WITH THE DRIVERS FROM EVO AND CAR AND ONE HAS ACTUALLY WIPED THE FLOOR WITH A SANDBAGGING STEVE MILLEN.

 

Acutally I know otherwise. A GT3 with a good driver in it and non freezing conditions will wipe the floor with the GT-R. I know that for a fact. I havent driven a 997 TT on track to get a gauge for it's potential, but Nissan seemed to be able to run some hellified times in it when they were here and driving it properly, and they were right on the heels or ahead of the GT-R.

REAL DRIVING is all I'll accept, and unfortunately for you and the fanboys, the mags dont offer that. So I go by the real stuff which supports my claims. So deep down you really have your doubts inside because I've put to sleep your magazine articles and you've seen the TT offer up the same perforamance on track with pro test drivers which is the only real way to guage the max performance.

Try again, you know I'm not easily moved, you'll have to do better than that.

 

10 carlengths at 150 mph doesnt take long to cover, and if you've studied data you'd know that you could change the finish line to anywhere on the track and the lap times wont change much unless there is a huge mistake. So 3 carlengths on a low speed corner or 10 on the straight is no difference.

So tommorrow is closer than you think.