I also have a V10 M5. Bought it new when they first came out in the U.S. and have never tired of it. The best thing about the car is probably the engine. I find it tremendously engaging and entertaining. You have to get the revs up to really make it move, i.e. you have to involve yourself in your driving. I don't find the Panamera engine particularly entertaining. The turbo version is very powerful but not engaging. That's the reason I've not been able to convince myself to trade it for a Panamera.

 

I switched from a 2007M6 (had a 2006M5 before that) to a 4S. I do mostly city driving and the M6 SMG was terrible for this. I can't speak about the F10 but moving to the 4S was a great experience. The car is a lot of fun to drive, interior is wonderful, back seats quite practical (I can have a kids seat on the right, fold down the left seat and get my road bike in w/the front tire still on.) It drives amazingly well both on highway and in city. Simply - I feel great every time I get into the car. My only mistake was not getting the turbo. I can't see myself switch back to an BMW.

One additional possibility would be the SL550/600- especially if you are driving that much. Just point a shoot. Interior is amazing and the hard top convertible is fantastic.

 

I would have to agree with you. The TT has a 200 HP advantage, and that will cover a lot of ground at VIR. I've tracked Cayman's extensively and the Cayman R is one of the best track cars you can buy. The stock Cayman S ran the same time as the new 911S at VIR in Car and Driver, and the Cayman R is faster. It should be capable of running close to 2:10's at VIR, and I'm not sure the TT could keep up with that. I suspect the driver was the big variable here.

 

You have real flaw in your logic here, or you're turning into a fuddy-duddy and will get you PCA card revoked! Summer Tires are great in the summer; Winter Tires are great in the winter. All-Seasons suck in every season. Tirerack even agrees with this.

If you were buying an Accord, I'd say "go for it", but com'on your considering spending $120k on a Panny and put all-seasons on it? No, No, No.

Now let me bring you back to real (enthusiast) life. What you were doing with your previous M5 is correct. Drive on hi-po summers as long as you can, have a dedicated set of winter tires AND wheels, swap them out before it get cold & snowy, ride on the "bricks" until spring, swap them back.

And, a 4S would be great if your snows will be on for 3 months or more, otherwise just get an S (or the M5 which will really be faster if that's what you're looking for).

 

Good points, we have a trip to Road Atlanta coming up "The Esses" should even things up a bit.

 

New F10 M5 grew a gut....

 

Actually, if you research the Ultra-High Performance All-Season Tires at Tirerack, they are very comparable to the Ultra-High Performance Summer Tires with the exception of wet performance, and I'm not one to slide the car around a lot in the wet. Their overall "Real World Handling" is higher than the summer tires. Here are the charts showing the performance in all Tirerack tests for both types of tires:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=131

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=134

As you can see, there is very little difference in all the categories except wet traction, with some of the all-season scores higher than some of the summer tires in almost all tests.

I can say unequivocally, and backed up by lots of winter driving, and Tirerack testing, that winter tires aren't 'great' in the Winter. They're pretty much the worst you can get in terms of handling performance on anything but the snow and ice. I really don't care if my tires aren't giving me the best performance on the 10 days I'm driving with snow on the road. I just can't stand driving on snow tires if I don't absolutely have to.

 

There is absolutely no all-season tire that can do what a set of summers and winters can do, especially considering that you're looking at a high-performance sedans.

While the numbers may be close on paper the clear consensus from the joint tests that Edmunds did on TireRacks' track were that summer tires were overwhelmingly preferred in dry and wet. Winters with cold temps and frozen precip.

Let's use Winter tires as a example and I think you might agree.
*All-Seasons give you average dry traction/ handling, average winter traction handling.
*Hi-Performance Winters (M3's, Sottozeros, Alpines, etc) have very good snow traction/ handling and average dry traction.
*Winter Tires (Blizzaks/ studded) should you have white-stuff on the ground all winter which are excellent with frozen precip and lousy in the dry.

My point was considering the vehicles you're looking at buying, why would you not want 2 sets of tires to cover a larger spectrum of environments you would encounter than 1 set that covers less.

 

But it certainly is a valid data point. The Panny may not be nearly as nible as a Cayman but it is a capable car on the track. I was hanging with a GT3RS and a couple GTRs. Driver is also an important factor.

Top Gear US called the Panny a sports car, and later a GT. And on this tight track it handled some promonent sports cars. Watch the lap and time at the end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbJRVmgI8Wg


Top Gear UK called it a four door supercar. Which is hard to deny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmeeF...eature=related

 

I'm not familiar with the Edmund's test. Were they testing ultra-high performance all-season? What tires did they test? Can you point me to the data? Have you looked at the Tirerack data - They do the most comprehensive tire testing of anyone I know.

First of all, I'm not arguing that a good set of summer tires will outrun a good set of all-seasons. No doubt. I'm trying to make two points here that are important to me:

First, a really good set of all-season such as Pzero Nero's are close enough to a good set of summers based on all the data I've looked at, that I won't mind a slight drop in handling. What I do mind, is in my second point:

There is no winter tire that can compare even marginally to a good summer tire in handling. Winter tires have a very soft, 'squirmy' tread and have very soft, flexible sidewalls. They are designed to perform well in ice and snow. If you've ever really pushed a car on a dry road in winter tires (sliding the back end out, etc...), you would feel how ridiculously bad they are in the dry, and you would stop pushing the car. Please check out the Tirerack data, they do the best tire testing of anyone out there. Look at something that is not subjective like braking distance from 50 -0:

Summer Tires: Dry 86-91, Wet 104-112
All-season Tire: Dry 87-93, Wet 102-110
Winter Tires: Dry 105-116, Wet 131-151

Maybe my solution is to run Summer tires and switch out to all-season's in the winter...

 

http://www.insideline.com/features/t...vs-summer.html

I stand by my comments.

 

I appreciate the comments on S/4S, handling, and winter/summer/all-season tires. That's why I posted this thread - I wanted to get peoples opinions on what I was thinking about. At this point, I'm looking at these options:

1. Continue what I'm doing, and get an S with summer/winter tires. This would probably give the best performance on summer tires.

2. Use All-Season tires on a 4S for slightly less performance than summer tires, but much better performance than winter in the dry, and comparable performance to an S on winters in the ice/snow.

3. Use Summers/All-seasons on a 4S. This would probably give the best performance year-round.

How does the S handle in the snow on winter's?

 

+1 FALB, you have to track this car to really understand what it's capable of. It's not a 911 but it's better than a Cayman.

 

Not to digress, but if you're talking about stock cars, and by 911 you mean GT3 and up, then of course I'd agree. If you bump up the Cayman HP to the level of any 911, it will run away from it on the track (yes, you've got to upgrade the brakes etc.). I'll bet the Cayman R will outrun any stock 911 on the track up to the GT3 level. As far as the best track chassis in mass production today, it is probably the Cayman.

As far as handling 'like a sports car', this is the main reason I'm looking at getting the Panamera vs the M5. The current Panamera 'feels' and handles considerably better than my E60 M5. I like the comment about '...so what if it's got 4 doors - when you're driving it feels like a 2-door Porsche'. To me, that is what it's all about.

 

This is officially my new favorite thread. I am in the "transition" phase from my 2006 V10 M5 (which I've had for about 4 years now), waiting on a 2011 PTT which has been built and should arrive within a few weeks. I have recently started to have some buyer's remorse because nearly every Pana that I see is being driven by someone much older than I. In fact, I saw an old lady driving one which I thought must have been a mistake - she should have been in her Jaguar. I'm 42. Plus a couple of my "car guy" friends made comments that they thought this car was too "mature" for me. I started to wonder if I've made a mistake. But then I go back to the roots of my decision to buy it - what do you buy after a V10 M5 other than MAYBE the new M5? I'm not a Mercedes guy. I'll be driving into NYC every day and wouldn't do something like an Aston, Bentley or Mas for that purpose. Truly the PTT was the best option (apart from the cost, which somehow I got over). Not to get personal, but how old are you guys buying Panas?