What to know if I want a lot of power for race track use?
Thread Starter
|
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 710
From: Finland, Luxembourg, Nürburgring
Rep Power: 63
What to know if I want a lot of power for race track use?
I have a race track focused 996 Turbo and I drive it on tracks a lot. I am interested in time attack races, lap times and such. So, I Drive it...
Car currently has the following mods from Techart: K16's, ECU, Exhaust. Car goes 100-200 km/h in 7.0 seconds with normal gas according to PBOX. These mods have been in cars for many years and no problems!
The question is: Should I jump the next step powerwise? Something that is a lot faster but still driveable on tracks. (700+ I think?)... 100-200 km/h should be in ~5 seconds I think to notice a nice difference? Performance of say EVO GT700 is not big enough upgrade in my opinion, friends have 3 EVO GT700 cars, good and fast but they are not that much faster...
Now dear members, educate me. What would be your recommendation. I am not a power junky so I haven't paid attention to every detail with tuning these engines.
What I need:
- A lot of power but 'easy' to drive. This is my 5th year tracking and racing 550hp Turbo so I have some experience, but I don't want something that is difficult (slow) to drive on tracks due to power curve, even though the car would have tons of power.
- Ease of use, just like stock, already proven package would be good. I have enough work with adjustments to tires, suspension, brakes and aero. I don't want to be tinkering or finetuning the engine as well all the time. So it is definitely negative if I have to start stressing about AFRs and boost pressures etc. as well.
- Should work and perform with European RON 98 pump gas. I would want to know some acceleration data beforehand (such as 60-130 mph) driven with pump gas as that is how I use the car. I see these race gas etc. figures often.
- Reliability as the car is driven hard on tracks. Also heavy Autobahn driving. This means I should upgrade some internals, even though many sell 700 kits without them? I don't need ever 1000hp, I just wanting something 700+ that lasts.
- Cats in place and not obnoxiously loud due to track sound limits. So no straight pipes stuff.
What I found:
- Switzer P800 package could be good for my needs: https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...s-670-whp.html
- Does this kind of kit need dyno tuning or am I fine just by sending the ECU? Any acceleration figures? I am not interested in dyno numbers, the dyno graph is interesting, but acceleration numbers are the ones that count.
- What kind of engine rebuild? Car currently has 35k miles and it does not get a lot of miles but it's hard use. What is the price level for this, I have no idea. I need something that lasts, but I don't need awfully expensive kit as I won't be needing 1000hp power in the future.
- Transmission rebuild at the same time? Do I need heavier axles or is that for drag racing?
Last but not least, what is appropriate budget to achieve my goals? Car currently has 550hp and performs really well. If I need tons of cash to build a proper 700hp+ kit I think I skip it for now and keep on continue developing the other aspects of the car...or check better cars
Ps. Traditionally I have been euro tuner fan (Manthey, Cargraphic, Techart) and I will ask these same questions for them...But I am really ready to opt for Switzer, EPL, Protomotive, Markski etc etc. The thing what I need is ease of use but still good performance. This could be a good choice for someone to expand to European markets as I am track day organizer here etc...
Thanks for any comments and experience.
Car currently has the following mods from Techart: K16's, ECU, Exhaust. Car goes 100-200 km/h in 7.0 seconds with normal gas according to PBOX. These mods have been in cars for many years and no problems!
The question is: Should I jump the next step powerwise? Something that is a lot faster but still driveable on tracks. (700+ I think?)... 100-200 km/h should be in ~5 seconds I think to notice a nice difference? Performance of say EVO GT700 is not big enough upgrade in my opinion, friends have 3 EVO GT700 cars, good and fast but they are not that much faster...
Now dear members, educate me. What would be your recommendation. I am not a power junky so I haven't paid attention to every detail with tuning these engines.
What I need:
- A lot of power but 'easy' to drive. This is my 5th year tracking and racing 550hp Turbo so I have some experience, but I don't want something that is difficult (slow) to drive on tracks due to power curve, even though the car would have tons of power.
- Ease of use, just like stock, already proven package would be good. I have enough work with adjustments to tires, suspension, brakes and aero. I don't want to be tinkering or finetuning the engine as well all the time. So it is definitely negative if I have to start stressing about AFRs and boost pressures etc. as well.
- Should work and perform with European RON 98 pump gas. I would want to know some acceleration data beforehand (such as 60-130 mph) driven with pump gas as that is how I use the car. I see these race gas etc. figures often.
- Reliability as the car is driven hard on tracks. Also heavy Autobahn driving. This means I should upgrade some internals, even though many sell 700 kits without them? I don't need ever 1000hp, I just wanting something 700+ that lasts.
- Cats in place and not obnoxiously loud due to track sound limits. So no straight pipes stuff.
What I found:
- Switzer P800 package could be good for my needs: https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...s-670-whp.html
- Does this kind of kit need dyno tuning or am I fine just by sending the ECU? Any acceleration figures? I am not interested in dyno numbers, the dyno graph is interesting, but acceleration numbers are the ones that count.
- What kind of engine rebuild? Car currently has 35k miles and it does not get a lot of miles but it's hard use. What is the price level for this, I have no idea. I need something that lasts, but I don't need awfully expensive kit as I won't be needing 1000hp power in the future.
- Transmission rebuild at the same time? Do I need heavier axles or is that for drag racing?
Last but not least, what is appropriate budget to achieve my goals? Car currently has 550hp and performs really well. If I need tons of cash to build a proper 700hp+ kit I think I skip it for now and keep on continue developing the other aspects of the car...or check better cars
Ps. Traditionally I have been euro tuner fan (Manthey, Cargraphic, Techart) and I will ask these same questions for them...But I am really ready to opt for Switzer, EPL, Protomotive, Markski etc etc. The thing what I need is ease of use but still good performance. This could be a good choice for someone to expand to European markets as I am track day organizer here etc...
Thanks for any comments and experience.
Last edited by Kaizu; May 8, 2010 at 09:33 AM.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,083
From: Texas
Rep Power: 673
The GT 30 turbos that the big power cars have are too laggy for 99% of road courses.
The old hybrid Gt28's w/ a k16 hotside were perfect for track duty as they had instant spool. No good for highway roll ons as they died out up top.
I have not driven the new GT 28s and the alpha version but that is what I would go with. Go with a full fuel system like the 700 plus whp cars have but stay w/ a medium sized turbo.
The old hybrid Gt28's w/ a k16 hotside were perfect for track duty as they had instant spool. No good for highway roll ons as they died out up top.
I have not driven the new GT 28s and the alpha version but that is what I would go with. Go with a full fuel system like the 700 plus whp cars have but stay w/ a medium sized turbo.
Thread Starter
|
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 710
From: Finland, Luxembourg, Nürburgring
Rep Power: 63
Thanks for the info guys!
Yeah, IC's are an obvious upgrade.
But, are the 24/18's enough powerwise? As only pump gas will be used I cannot increase the boost greatly. Any ideas what kind of 60-130 times with 24/18's + fuel system + pump gas? With this combination I assume I could stay with stock engine internals for some time, so it would be affordable, but would it be fast enough, as I already have 'good' 550hp...?
But, are the 24/18's enough powerwise? As only pump gas will be used I cannot increase the boost greatly. Any ideas what kind of 60-130 times with 24/18's + fuel system + pump gas? With this combination I assume I could stay with stock engine internals for some time, so it would be affordable, but would it be fast enough, as I already have 'good' 550hp...?
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,880
From: In a Canyon - Really :)
Rep Power: 290
No offense but I doubt you're making 550 Hp with K16s. Most tuners advertise 550 HP with K24s (maxed). What boost are you running?
A28s have been proven to make more power than 24/18s on the top end and provide 1500 RPM lower spool...
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...o-results.html
I suggest Tial 2860RS or A28s. Both technically GT28s. Everything else is too laggy for the track.
A28s have been proven to make more power than 24/18s on the top end and provide 1500 RPM lower spool...
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...o-results.html
I suggest Tial 2860RS or A28s. Both technically GT28s. Everything else is too laggy for the track.
Last edited by Turbo Fanatic; May 8, 2010 at 11:37 AM.
Thread Starter
|
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 710
From: Finland, Luxembourg, Nürburgring
Rep Power: 63
They are not stock K16's, but Techart modified K16's.
Thanks!
Thanks!
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,481
Rep Power: 707
billet 16's ? they have very little lag and perform well put out good power , they would be ideal , combine that with intercoolers , fuel system for some sort and you would be set. or the k24/18gs, they are great for track also.
Trending Topics
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,453
From: CT
Rep Power: 439
Thanks for the info guys!
Yeah, IC's are an obvious upgrade.
But, are the 24/18's enough powerwise? As only pump gas will be used I cannot increase the boost greatly. Any ideas what kind of 60-130 times with 24/18's + fuel system + pump gas? With this combination I assume I could stay with stock engine internals for some time, so it would be affordable, but would it be fast enough, as I already have 'good' 550hp...?
Yeah, IC's are an obvious upgrade.
But, are the 24/18's enough powerwise? As only pump gas will be used I cannot increase the boost greatly. Any ideas what kind of 60-130 times with 24/18's + fuel system + pump gas? With this combination I assume I could stay with stock engine internals for some time, so it would be affordable, but would it be fast enough, as I already have 'good' 550hp...?
Before my meth setup, I was running 6.6 60-130 on 93 pump, with just 18G's injectors and exhaust, no other mods. That's probably 5.5 100-200...
Thread Starter
|
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 710
From: Finland, Luxembourg, Nürburgring
Rep Power: 63
Small Scandinavian tracks, where the speeds are most of the time less than 200 km/h. That may imply that I don't need huge power...?
But my biggest joy in this hobby comes from Nordschleife. No official timing there, but I did 7.45 min BTG in Touristenfahrten traffic while I was there last time...
18gs with 60 lbs and ICs... call it a day... We have tried many turbo options since 2001... and if I would start naming them all I would need a page to write it on...
get some used 18gs for 2K.. upgrade for $1000.... injectors are cheap... ICs Are a must either way for you...
We put down 560rwhp uncorrected on pump with our ICs on a 18g with stock Wgs at 1.1/1.2 max bar....
Sure there are many options... another one is the 20g that does run close to 30rs...
we did a few of them too... but you need the complete intake, piping ,etc... still direct replacement and still a fraction of the cost of other turbos...
mark
get some used 18gs for 2K.. upgrade for $1000.... injectors are cheap... ICs Are a must either way for you...
We put down 560rwhp uncorrected on pump with our ICs on a 18g with stock Wgs at 1.1/1.2 max bar....
Sure there are many options... another one is the 20g that does run close to 30rs...
we did a few of them too... but you need the complete intake, piping ,etc... still direct replacement and still a fraction of the cost of other turbos...
mark
__________________
2001 996TT 3.6L and stock ECU
9.66 seconds @ 147.76 mph 1/4 mile click to view
160 mph @ 9.77 seconds in 1/4 mile click to view
50% OFF ON PORSCHE ECU TUNING BLACK FRIDAY SPECIAL
2001 996TT 3.6L and stock ECU
9.66 seconds @ 147.76 mph 1/4 mile click to view
160 mph @ 9.77 seconds in 1/4 mile click to view
50% OFF ON PORSCHE ECU TUNING BLACK FRIDAY SPECIAL
The 996tt P800 is an excellent choice, spools faster than the stock K16's and would leave K24's in the dust because of the characteristics of the powerband. I have talked with many owners of K24/18g setups that went with that sort of package because of the advertised horsepower, only to find themselves having a hard time on the track because it is a very laggy combination, and when the power came in you had to be careful because it would break the tires loose...
We can send you the P800 in a box with a flash cable and do everything remotely, no need to send in your DME(ECU).
Here is an article on the P800:
We can send you the P800 in a box with a flash cable and do everything remotely, no need to send in your DME(ECU).
Here is an article on the P800:
Revisiting the Past | Switzer P800 for 996 TT
WHAT 800 EMISSIONS-COMPLIANT HP LOOKS LIKE
Porsche's 996 model was, arguably, the most significant product launch in the company's history, making the flagship 911 a modern car, instead of an air-cooled anachronism.
The 996 was initially shunned by many Porsche purists, but quickly became a favorite tuning platform for tuners. As we mentioned before in these pages, the 996 featured an engine derived from Porsche's cost-no-object GT1 program, which was shelved at the end of the 1990's, and the engine's bullet-proof construction has allowed us to push the stock internals of the 996's successor - the 997 - to incredible power levels, far beyond what was possible with the older air-cooled cars.
A robust platform is just one part of the puzzle, however - rapid advancements in both machining, software, and rapid-prototyping technologies is another, and development partners like TiAL Sport have made the most of these new tools, providing us with state-of-the-art turbine housings that manage airflow and heat more efficiently than even the most advanced racing turbos of just a few years ago ... which got us thinking.
Our primary focus has been on the newer 997 model Porsches (more on those, later), but what if we revisited that platform with current knowledge, using a new turbo based on TiAL's latest Alpha housings (plus a few Switzer tweaks to optimize it for the 996 TT)? What would that car be like?
The results (below), speak for themselves ...
SMOOTH AND LINEAR AND NEVER STOPS PULLING
... over 670 whp on 93 octane with 200-cell catalytic converters in place, and a super-smooth curve that gives the car a "Jekyll and Hyde" duality of smooth cruising and easy driving around-town, followed up by Veyron-baiting performance when the nanny-controls are off and the pedals hit the metals.
Considering the current market prices for 996 turbos, Tym feels a car like this delivers the ultimate daily driver/weekend track-day experience by offering a reliable driveline, capable suspension, and excellent braking with the stability and confidence of AWD. He says it best himself,
WHAT 800 EMISSIONS-COMPLIANT HP LOOKS LIKE
Porsche's 996 model was, arguably, the most significant product launch in the company's history, making the flagship 911 a modern car, instead of an air-cooled anachronism.
The 996 was initially shunned by many Porsche purists, but quickly became a favorite tuning platform for tuners. As we mentioned before in these pages, the 996 featured an engine derived from Porsche's cost-no-object GT1 program, which was shelved at the end of the 1990's, and the engine's bullet-proof construction has allowed us to push the stock internals of the 996's successor - the 997 - to incredible power levels, far beyond what was possible with the older air-cooled cars.
A robust platform is just one part of the puzzle, however - rapid advancements in both machining, software, and rapid-prototyping technologies is another, and development partners like TiAL Sport have made the most of these new tools, providing us with state-of-the-art turbine housings that manage airflow and heat more efficiently than even the most advanced racing turbos of just a few years ago ... which got us thinking.
Our primary focus has been on the newer 997 model Porsches (more on those, later), but what if we revisited that platform with current knowledge, using a new turbo based on TiAL's latest Alpha housings (plus a few Switzer tweaks to optimize it for the 996 TT)? What would that car be like?
The results (below), speak for themselves ...
SMOOTH AND LINEAR AND NEVER STOPS PULLING
... over 670 whp on 93 octane with 200-cell catalytic converters in place, and a super-smooth curve that gives the car a "Jekyll and Hyde" duality of smooth cruising and easy driving around-town, followed up by Veyron-baiting performance when the nanny-controls are off and the pedals hit the metals.
Considering the current market prices for 996 turbos, Tym feels a car like this delivers the ultimate daily driver/weekend track-day experience by offering a reliable driveline, capable suspension, and excellent braking with the stability and confidence of AWD. He says it best himself,
"This is an 800 hp pump-gas Porsche that can be driven to the track, run hard all day, and driven home. In short: I couldn't be happier with the results, and - most importantly - neither can our clients."
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,577
From: tampa florida
Rep Power: 211
I race mine monthly with exactly what Marski suggested, that is spot on advice anything more is overkill or a waste
I did get rid of the actuator rods that kept breaking and went to external waste gates
I did get rid of the actuator rods that kept breaking and went to external waste gates