2010 GTI: Better Than M3
#16
05-20-2010, 02:50 PM
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the man does have a point:
so he's saying it's better in the same way that a E30 M3 is better than a new M3, because it's what BMW should be aspiring to build.
As for me, I'd argue that this car is better than a BMW M3 because it combines the M3-style virtues in a car that is not only affordable but also responsive and nimble. The disappointment we all felt when the BMW 2002 was replaced by the BMW 3 Series had to do with size and weight, and we preferred a nimble, lightweight car. And after more than two decades of cars being developed to break the 300 km/h barrier on the German autobahn (something increasingly impossible because of traffic volume, my German friends say), I'm tired of driving 4,000-pound sedans masquerading as coupes. Most of my disappointment in the BMW 1 Series has to do with its unwillingness to embrace a new personality as a light car rather than simply perpetuate the old 3 Series template.
For me, the Volkswagen GTI is the kind of M3 that I prefer, less like a V8-powered truck and more like the Whispering Bomb. It's a great car.
For me, the Volkswagen GTI is the kind of M3 that I prefer, less like a V8-powered truck and more like the Whispering Bomb. It's a great car.
#17
05-20-2010, 05:19 PM
Why should BMW be aspiring to build an E30 3 series? That car would not pass muster as a luxury sports car now. In the same token go drive a MK1 GTI and drive this car and you could arguably say the same thing. I get why they love the GTI and with DSG its a good drive but to put it on par with an M3 is plain stupidity.
#18
05-20-2010, 07:20 PM
From the passage above (with reference to the Whispering Bomb), I think he's saying BMW should be aspiring to build cars like the 2002: small, lightweight, more nimble than the E30 (non-M3) that succeeded it. Even though they did not execute it well with the 1-Series, which is hard to do when you're sharing many parts with the 3-Series, BMW have not completely lost sight of these virtues of the 2002. Supposedly the new 1-Series will be lighter. And when they were promoting the current coupe, they were pretty much banging on with the 2002 references whenever they could.
#19
05-20-2010, 09:12 PM
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Rep Power: 411 Why should BMW be aspiring to build an E30 3 series? That car would not pass muster as a luxury sports car now. In the same token go drive a MK1 GTI and drive this car and you could arguably say the same thing. I get why they love the GTI and with DSG its a good drive but to put it on par with an M3 is plain stupidity.
#20
05-21-2010, 09:55 AM
Right so they make it weigh less than its competition oh wait it already does, when is the last time you have driven an E30 3 series? Most BMW purists consider the E36 the better mix between sporty and luxury and the last pure BMW 3 series as far as steering feel.
And I think its a little presumptious for us to be telling BMW how it should build cars. After all the 3 series is the best selling luxury car on the PLANET.
And I think its a little presumptious for us to be telling BMW how it should build cars. After all the 3 series is the best selling luxury car on the PLANET.
#22
05-21-2010, 03:29 PM
Which is my point, why compare it to a car that experienced the same middle aged spread? You can't expect cars that meet our safety standards to weigh the same as cars that met the safety standards back then!
#23
05-22-2010, 03:00 AM
Perhaps you better read this passage from Autocar, which compared the E30 M3 Sport Evo against the then-new E36 M3 at Goodwood:
"In the end, it’s all down to the steering. Without a doubt the new car’s body control and damper tuning are better than the Evo’s at Goodwood. As are its brakes, gear ratios, grip and stability through the fast corners. But its steering – that vital contact seam between fingers and blacktop – is hopeless next to the Evo’s, which bristles with feel and precision whereas the new car’s vague and lifeless."
As far as weight, I agree it is unrealistic for today's 3-Series to weigh as little as an E30. But that doesn't mean it can't be a lot lighter. Look at the old C4 ZR1: 3519 lbs. C6 ZR1: 3350 lbs. The new GT2 RS is 70kg less than the old one. And not too terribly porky compared to the original 993 GT2 with a difference of 75 kilos. The Mustang GT is about 130 lbs lighter than the M3. Audi is said to be targeting a weight savings of 300 lbs in the next A4. If BMW continues on with their current trend, the may very well lose the weight battle against some competitors.
#24
05-22-2010, 05:13 AM
I never said the E30 was worse steering feel than the E36, I said that most BMW purists ( I have an E36 ) consider the E36 to be the last car that actually had steering feel. There was a huge debate when the E46 came out regarding its lack of steering feel compared to the E36.
I guess my point is that the 1 series was intended to occupy the space where the 3 series once did and the 3 series was moving upmarket. Unfortunately the 1 series end up being a cheaper interior, stranger looking car that costs similar money and weighs a similar amount instead of taking it back to the car that the 2002 or E30 would be a predecessor to spiritually.
At the end of the day car makers give us the consumer what we want, and unfortunately those things add weight and complexity to cars.
I guess my point is that the 1 series was intended to occupy the space where the 3 series once did and the 3 series was moving upmarket. Unfortunately the 1 series end up being a cheaper interior, stranger looking car that costs similar money and weighs a similar amount instead of taking it back to the car that the 2002 or E30 would be a predecessor to spiritually.
At the end of the day car makers give us the consumer what we want, and unfortunately those things add weight and complexity to cars.
#25
05-22-2010, 11:26 AM
I guess my point is that the 1 series was intended to occupy the space where the 3 series once did and the 3 series was moving upmarket. Unfortunately the 1 series end up being a cheaper interior, stranger looking car that costs similar money and weighs a similar amount instead of taking it back to the car that the 2002 or E30 would be a predecessor to spiritually.
At the end of the day car makers give us the consumer what we want, and unfortunately those things add weight and complexity to cars.
At the end of the day car makers give us the consumer what we want, and unfortunately those things add weight and complexity to cars.
If by "we" you mean not driving enthusiasts but, rather, upscale families in China who want to make an impression on their neighbors, then yes, BMW is making exactly what "we" want (5-Series GT). As a purely business decision, it's a good move by BMW to go where the money is. But that doesn't mean we, as enthusiasts, can't be cynical about it and influence BMW to also provide the cars that we want.
#26
05-22-2010, 11:57 AM
BMW's has been actually really good at finding unique niches from the X5, to the ( despite the naysayers) sales numbers of the BMW X6. They have miscues as does any manufacturer but to say a car that has gained weight thru perspective generations is better than another car that has done the same is a little funny to me!
#27
05-24-2010, 09:10 AM
We all should agree that the GTI is a alot of bang for the buck. That said why does every car company go after the M3 ? Well the asnwer is simple,the M3 sets the standard for all other vehicles going after this market to be measured plain and simple.
#28
05-24-2010, 10:36 AM
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please note my signature.
#29
05-24-2010, 12:25 PM
I was talking to Guibo 
, I know you understand the differences between the cars! I always thought it was funny as BMW enthusiasts because for instance when the E36 replaced the E30 there was complaints about the new cars purity and steering feel. Than the same thing happened with the E46 and everyone was waxing poetically about the E36's steering feel!
Its saddening when you realize a lot of todays sedans would beat most of the 1980's sports cars!
, I know you understand the differences between the cars! I always thought it was funny as BMW enthusiasts because for instance when the E36 replaced the E30 there was complaints about the new cars purity and steering feel. Than the same thing happened with the E46 and everyone was waxing poetically about the E36's steering feel! Its saddening when you realize a lot of todays sedans would beat most of the 1980's sports cars!
#30
05-24-2010, 05:20 PM
Well, I have driven the E30 318is, E30 M3 (stock and modified), E36 318i (stock & modified), and E36 318ti so I can certainly agree that the E30 has better steering feel. Only thing on the E30 318is I didn't like was the bus-like steering ratio. I've also driven various '02s. So I can definitely relate to what the author was saying.