REAL WORLD 996 GT3 vs GT-R
#76
05-04-2008, 10:56 PM
For those still curious about the Cayman in the One Lap that Leh Keen is driving, the upgrades are as follows:
X51 crate engine with custom intake and exhaust (390HP at the crank, 400 if using 100 octane)
LSD
Moton Clubsport shocks, custom spring rates
various GT3 and Cup car suspension bits, including LCAs, rear toe links, etc
997 front bodywork
Fikse wheels
carbon fiber rear deck lid with lexan window
various carbon fiber small bits (mirrors, scoops, rear wing)
lightweight flywheel
PCCBs
euro GT3 seats
timetrial legal roll bar/harnesses
GT3 RS steering wheel, shifter, parking brake handle
997 ABS module
probably a few more things slipping my mind...
Another tidbit: Tony won the June Sprints at Road America in something this past year, so he's likely very good at that track. Ian does have a lot of time in that GT3 and is an excellent driver, particularly at something like this. It's really just a big exercise in looking ahead and being smooth, and he's good, period. He not only won the SuperStock National Championship last year, he beat some damned fine PRO drivers to do it in similar equipment (including Gary Thomason, one of the best drivers in the country who was also in a GT3). Ian was also voted Solo Driver of the Year by his peers.
And the least related tidbit, my car will be back in this event with more power and more grip.
--Donnie
X51 crate engine with custom intake and exhaust (390HP at the crank, 400 if using 100 octane)
LSD
Moton Clubsport shocks, custom spring rates
various GT3 and Cup car suspension bits, including LCAs, rear toe links, etc
997 front bodywork
Fikse wheels
carbon fiber rear deck lid with lexan window
various carbon fiber small bits (mirrors, scoops, rear wing)
lightweight flywheel
PCCBs
euro GT3 seats
timetrial legal roll bar/harnesses
GT3 RS steering wheel, shifter, parking brake handle
997 ABS module
probably a few more things slipping my mind...
Another tidbit: Tony won the June Sprints at Road America in something this past year, so he's likely very good at that track. Ian does have a lot of time in that GT3 and is an excellent driver, particularly at something like this. It's really just a big exercise in looking ahead and being smooth, and he's good, period. He not only won the SuperStock National Championship last year, he beat some damned fine PRO drivers to do it in similar equipment (including Gary Thomason, one of the best drivers in the country who was also in a GT3). Ian was also voted Solo Driver of the Year by his peers.
And the least related tidbit, my car will be back in this event with more power and more grip.
--Donnie
-Pete
#77
05-04-2008, 11:04 PM
I don't have any direct experience with RE070's versus PS2's, but I'm friends with people like Brian Smith and learned a long time ago that when I ask someone like that a question like "which tire should I run" and they say there's no question that if there's a PS2 in my size then that's my tire (as far as One Lap eligible tires, anyway), then I take it at face value.
I have autocrossed on RE070's and found them lacking in most respects, even compared to Yokohama Advan Neovas. But 98% of my autocrossing is on r-compounds (usually Hoosier A6's), so I'm not a great judge of that sort of thing. For reference, I've been autocrossing at the National level for six years now and have numerous trophies and even a second place at the ProSolo Finale to show for it. I also road race Spec Miata, ran a few MX-5 Cup pro races last year, have won the 13 Hour Enduro at VIR in Spec Miata, own a World Challenge TC spec RSX-S that I'll run in the 13 hour this year, and plan to run a few GAC ST races later in the season in an RX-8. I'm definitely not in Leh's league, but I do have a good bit of track experience that also includes a good bit of instructing (which even includes law enforcement instruction).
--Donnie
I have autocrossed on RE070's and found them lacking in most respects, even compared to Yokohama Advan Neovas. But 98% of my autocrossing is on r-compounds (usually Hoosier A6's), so I'm not a great judge of that sort of thing. For reference, I've been autocrossing at the National level for six years now and have numerous trophies and even a second place at the ProSolo Finale to show for it. I also road race Spec Miata, ran a few MX-5 Cup pro races last year, have won the 13 Hour Enduro at VIR in Spec Miata, own a World Challenge TC spec RSX-S that I'll run in the 13 hour this year, and plan to run a few GAC ST races later in the season in an RX-8. I'm definitely not in Leh's league, but I do have a good bit of track experience that also includes a good bit of instructing (which even includes law enforcement instruction).
--Donnie
#78
05-05-2008, 02:57 AM
Yes girl.
The R&T test is done, the C&D test is done, the Motortrend test is done, the CAR magazine test is done, the Autocar test is done, the Evo test is done, the Best Motoring test is done. Do you not understand that you can't change these results?
I note how you've dodged the fact that I can prove the GTR is stock but you can't do the same for any of the other cars there. I think the ACR is about the most stock(ish) car in that line up but even it has a Hennessey 650R pack, at the least.
http://www.viperalley.com/forum/trac...rica-race.html
http://www.hennesseyperformance.com/...ctionReq=Where
So road and track is irrelevant now. You may as well just admit defeat to make a comment like that. You keep dodging the true fact, that you cant rely on the magazines that you are hanging your hat on, and this is purely putting them in their place.
But I understand why you are avoiding the topic, because there is no rebuttal. It's CHECK AND MATE.
But I understand why you are avoiding the topic, because there is no rebuttal. It's CHECK AND MATE.
I note how you've dodged the fact that I can prove the GTR is stock but you can't do the same for any of the other cars there. I think the ACR is about the most stock(ish) car in that line up but even it has a Hennessey 650R pack, at the least.
http://www.viperalley.com/forum/trac...rica-race.html
http://www.hennesseyperformance.com/...ctionReq=Where
#79
05-05-2008, 03:11 AM
Speaking of dribble, you continue to waist my time with worthless posts that are nothing but arguing your feelings. I could care less about those. Go learn something about tracking and then come back, but for now you have no useful information to add to the thread.
I'm done arguing with people who cant provide a SOLID ARGUEMENT and continue to ignore the issues they have surely been defeated on without admitting it.
Z07
Rafiki
So postaways you guys, but until you answer the real issues you get ignored.
I'm done arguing with people who cant provide a SOLID ARGUEMENT and continue to ignore the issues they have surely been defeated on without admitting it.
Z07
Rafiki
So postaways you guys, but until you answer the real issues you get ignored.
Can you please articulate exactly what it is that you are trying to prove?
#80
05-05-2008, 04:27 AM
Me? I think that pirates were to blame for the R&T test results. Arrrrrgh!
#81
05-05-2008, 07:04 AM
i read all this crap last nite while drivin using my cell phone....
Dez... the GTR is a faster car.... even then the black gt3.... wich BTW is def NOT stock...... exhuast.. Motons... other suspension goodies.. and its set up Very well as they have been competing in the car for 3 years now........ they know the car... and Ian is driving it great.....
The GTR on the other hand.. is not getting drivin well... and also i would like to add Tony just got a Cast takin off his wrist less then a week ago from a broken arm... its still swollen and he cant really move it to well..... also he has never drivin the car... at Road America was the first time he ever drove it on a road corse.. and he still beat the GT3.....
so dood... im tellin u right now.. that 996 gt3 is faster then a stock 997 gt3.. be a good bit... and the GTR is faster then both at most tracks... the HP is incredible from the GTR....
Dez... the GTR is a faster car.... even then the black gt3.... wich BTW is def NOT stock...... exhuast.. Motons... other suspension goodies.. and its set up Very well as they have been competing in the car for 3 years now........ they know the car... and Ian is driving it great.....
The GTR on the other hand.. is not getting drivin well... and also i would like to add Tony just got a Cast takin off his wrist less then a week ago from a broken arm... its still swollen and he cant really move it to well..... also he has never drivin the car... at Road America was the first time he ever drove it on a road corse.. and he still beat the GT3.....
so dood... im tellin u right now.. that 996 gt3 is faster then a stock 997 gt3.. be a good bit... and the GTR is faster then both at most tracks... the HP is incredible from the GTR....
#83
05-05-2008, 07:22 AM
Be thankful you don't live in the UK. You'd have a Notice of Intended Prosecution winging its way to you already.Good informative post. I'm very impressed with the ACR so far. I know it's running some light engine mods but that seems to be all. Is this correct?
#84
05-05-2008, 08:38 AM
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ga
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i read all this crap last nite while drivin using my cell phone....
Dez... the GTR is a faster car.... even then the black gt3.... wich BTW is def NOT stock...... exhuast.. Motons... other suspension goodies.. and its set up Very well as they have been competing in the car for 3 years now........ they know the car... and Ian is driving it great.....
The GTR on the other hand.. is not getting drivin well... and also i would like to add Tony just got a Cast takin off his wrist less then a week ago from a broken arm... its still swollen and he cant really move it to well..... also he has never drivin the car... at Road America was the first time he ever drove it on a road corse.. and he still beat the GT3.....
so dood... im tellin u right now.. that 996 gt3 is faster then a stock 997 gt3.. be a good bit... and the GTR is faster then both at most tracks... the HP is incredible from the GTR....
Dez... the GTR is a faster car.... even then the black gt3.... wich BTW is def NOT stock...... exhuast.. Motons... other suspension goodies.. and its set up Very well as they have been competing in the car for 3 years now........ they know the car... and Ian is driving it great.....
The GTR on the other hand.. is not getting drivin well... and also i would like to add Tony just got a Cast takin off his wrist less then a week ago from a broken arm... its still swollen and he cant really move it to well..... also he has never drivin the car... at Road America was the first time he ever drove it on a road corse.. and he still beat the GT3.....
so dood... im tellin u right now.. that 996 gt3 is faster then a stock 997 gt3.. be a good bit... and the GTR is faster then both at most tracks... the HP is incredible from the GTR....
Well you seem to be the only one that thinks a 996 GT3 with relatively minor suspension upgrades is faster than a 997 GT3, and that's including pro guys that have owned them and had lots of seat time in both, very well setup at the same tracks. You know Hank, I heard this straight from the horses mouth.
You said before that you thought the GT3 would be faster on the circuit considering equal drivers, has that changed now? I sure hope it isnt based on the magazines, not if you have looked at the videos and data.
In fact, if you look at the b stock records (PCA) you'll see that the 996 GT3 which are much more heavily modded than Ian's (lexan windows, weight reduction etc) are still only slightly faster) than a stock GT3 and their running hoosiers, and are heavily modded.
I know you do this race thing for a living, but let's be realistic here. That 996 GT3 is not faster than a 997 GT3 with no power mods and no weight reduction and only coilovers and a dialed suspension, of course, it's track dependant, but nevertheless as hefty fact.
#85
05-05-2008, 08:48 AM
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ga
Posts: 8,934
Rep Power: 550 What he's saying is that a stock GTR went up against a bunch of modified high performance cars with champion drivers and didn't win, therefore the R&T group test - concerning stock vehicles - must be wrong. Clearly he believes that One Lap of America competitors modify their cars to make them slower and not faster.
Me? I think that pirates were to blame for the R&T test results. Arrrrrgh!
Me? I think that pirates were to blame for the R&T test results. Arrrrrgh!
No I'm saying this same driver, which you choose to ignore, beats road and track test driver who also happens to be a CHAMPION DRIVER, on a professional level on the same track in the same car.
But now all of a sudden he's inferior?
Me think's you are just trying not to understand. It's simple.
Tony Swan vs Steve Millen (champion TEST DRIVER) = Win (Tony Swan) Same car, Same track
but
Tony Swan ("faster" car) vs Auto-x champ = Severe loss (Tony Swan)
How does that add up? Someone explain that to me.
Last edited by heavychevy; 05-05-2008 at 08:54 AM.
#86
05-05-2008, 09:15 AM
Well you seem to be the only one that thinks a 996 GT3 with relatively minor suspension upgrades is faster than a 997 GT3, and that's including pro guys that have owned them and had lots of seat time in both, very well setup at the same tracks. You know Hank, I heard this straight from the horses mouth.
You said before that you thought the GT3 would be faster on the circuit considering equal drivers, has that changed now? I sure hope it isnt based on the magazines, not if you have looked at the videos and data.
You said before that you thought the GT3 would be faster on the circuit considering equal drivers, has that changed now? I sure hope it isnt based on the magazines, not if you have looked at the videos and data.
I can certainly sympathise with the guy in the GTR who had a cast taken off his broken arm a week ago...mine's still in a cast. He's about 2-3 months away from having the normal use of his arm, so his result is even better.
Maybe you didn't know about the broken arm. But For you to start start comparing a stock GTR that has just landed here to race prepped cars driven by experienced campaigners in any car, let alone a GT3 that is by design a track car....was really desperate.
And now to insult a race driver(you invited his input didn't you?) who told it to you straight, by suggesting he was influenced by magazines, is nothing short of bizarre.
What is it going to take for you to accept that one magazine result can definitely be wrong, two maybe, but not ALL of them.
When are you going to accept that just because the GTR is faster than the 997 tt and the GT3, that Porsche owners aren't suddenly going to dump their rides and buy the GTR instead.
Just move on HC so you don't keep attracting trolls and fanboys as you call them and then hope for the moderators to get you out of trouble.
#87
05-05-2008, 09:23 AM
No I'm saying this same driver, which you choose to ignore, beats road and track test driver who also happens to be a CHAMPION DRIVER, on a professional level on the same track in the same car.
But now all of a sudden he's inferior?
Me think's you are just trying not to understand. It's simple.
Tony Swan vs Steve Millen (champion TEST DRIVER) = Win (Tony Swan) Same car, Same track
but
Tony Swan ("faster" car) vs Auto-x champ = Severe loss (Tony Swan)
How does that add up? Someone explain that to me.
But now all of a sudden he's inferior?
Me think's you are just trying not to understand. It's simple.
Tony Swan vs Steve Millen (champion TEST DRIVER) = Win (Tony Swan) Same car, Same track
but
Tony Swan ("faster" car) vs Auto-x champ = Severe loss (Tony Swan)
How does that add up? Someone explain that to me.
Originally Posted by kingleh
Dez... the GTR is a faster car.... even then the black gt3.... wich BTW is def NOT stock...... exhuast.. Motons... other suspension goodies.. and its set up Very well as they have been competing in the car for 3 years now........ they know the car... and Ian is driving it great.....
The GTR on the other hand.. is not getting drivin well... and also i would like to add Tony just got a Cast takin off his wrist less then a week ago from a broken arm... its still swollen and he cant really move it to well..... also he has never drivin the car... at Road America was the first time he ever drove it on a road corse.. and he still beat the GT3.....
....and the GTR is faster then both at most tracks... the HP is incredible from the GTR....
Dez... the GTR is a faster car.... even then the black gt3.... wich BTW is def NOT stock...... exhuast.. Motons... other suspension goodies.. and its set up Very well as they have been competing in the car for 3 years now........ they know the car... and Ian is driving it great.....
The GTR on the other hand.. is not getting drivin well... and also i would like to add Tony just got a Cast takin off his wrist less then a week ago from a broken arm... its still swollen and he cant really move it to well..... also he has never drivin the car... at Road America was the first time he ever drove it on a road corse.. and he still beat the GT3.....
....and the GTR is faster then both at most tracks... the HP is incredible from the GTR....
What part of the above don't you understand? If you still don't get it and want a more in depth explanation, go back and read those magazine comparisons ONE more time.
Last edited by rafiki; 05-05-2008 at 09:25 AM.
#88
05-05-2008, 09:25 AM
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#89
05-05-2008, 09:30 AM
i read all this crap last nite while drivin using my cell phone....
Dez... the GTR is a faster car.... even then the black gt3.... wich BTW is def NOT stock...... exhuast.. Motons... other suspension goodies.. and its set up Very well as they have been competing in the car for 3 years now........ they know the car... and Ian is driving it great.....
The GTR on the other hand.. is not getting drivin well... and also i would like to add Tony just got a Cast takin off his wrist less then a week ago from a broken arm... its still swollen and he cant really move it to well..... also he has never drivin the car... at Road America was the first time he ever drove it on a road corse.. and he still beat the GT3.....
so dood... im tellin u right now.. that 996 gt3 is faster then a stock 997 gt3.. be a good bit... and the GTR is faster then both at most tracks... the HP is incredible from the GTR....
Dez... the GTR is a faster car.... even then the black gt3.... wich BTW is def NOT stock...... exhuast.. Motons... other suspension goodies.. and its set up Very well as they have been competing in the car for 3 years now........ they know the car... and Ian is driving it great.....
The GTR on the other hand.. is not getting drivin well... and also i would like to add Tony just got a Cast takin off his wrist less then a week ago from a broken arm... its still swollen and he cant really move it to well..... also he has never drivin the car... at Road America was the first time he ever drove it on a road corse.. and he still beat the GT3.....
so dood... im tellin u right now.. that 996 gt3 is faster then a stock 997 gt3.. be a good bit... and the GTR is faster then both at most tracks... the HP is incredible from the GTR....
By the way, your modded Cayman sounds incredible.
#90
05-05-2008, 09:34 AM
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ga
Posts: 8,934
Rep Power: 550
No, actually I did not ask for Leh's input, and we all know he's an import fan, so he knows I take what he says with a grain of salt based on his response when I did try to ask for a professional opinion. Besides, he's not the ONLY pro driver I talk to, and ones that he's very familiar with will completely disagree with his assessment of a 996 GT3 with coilovers being enough to beat a stock 997 GT3, and there are times to prove it and I can show them.
I think Ian has shocked everyone with how fast he went at Mid America, considering there are GTP's, GT-R, ACR, TT's and a Cayman GTR with better weight/power ratios and equal if not better suspensions. I'd say he's the over acheiver in the group by a good margin.
Still no acknowledgement of how the driver who all of a sudden is mr irrelevant, can beat a test driver, but still not be regarded as all that of a driver?
Anyone?
Buellers?
You fanboys find points to harp on, yet continue to ignore the real issue here, which for me was to debunk at the very least road and tracks test as biased. If the data they posted did not, then this certainly does.
Selective beleivability with facts to show otherwise FTL.
I think Ian has shocked everyone with how fast he went at Mid America, considering there are GTP's, GT-R, ACR, TT's and a Cayman GTR with better weight/power ratios and equal if not better suspensions. I'd say he's the over acheiver in the group by a good margin.
Still no acknowledgement of how the driver who all of a sudden is mr irrelevant, can beat a test driver, but still not be regarded as all that of a driver?
Anyone?
Buellers?
You fanboys find points to harp on, yet continue to ignore the real issue here, which for me was to debunk at the very least road and tracks test as biased. If the data they posted did not, then this certainly does.
Selective beleivability with facts to show otherwise FTL.