After market stereo recommendation?
#17
10-25-2013, 12:56 AM
I would be very excited about aftermarket alternatives if I knew my car wouldn't suddenly have creaks and squeaks it didn't have before the install....if you like the factory BOSE unit, that's okay, but for me, the early 80's Concorde MOSFET AM/FM Cassette player I had years ago blew away the current BOSE system in overall sound quality. IMHO, YMMV, etc... nice systems, gang!
#18
10-25-2013, 01:26 AM
Registered User
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cape Town - Somerset West
Posts: 302
Rep Power: 35 
I have the base system.
I have worked all areas of the car to get rid of a multitude of rattle and squeek sources so I have had a good look at the speakers.
I have a background in electronics design and many years ago designed hifi systems and speakers for a German company before I started my own company designing avionics for aircraft.
Anyway, the speakers used in the base system are not exactly what I would call "state of the art", however, since this is a 911 and it's purpose is not a music hall that is fine by me.
The basic sound system is actually not that bad - however it does have one single major problem which also affects the Bose in the same way: The door speakers. They are the main source of what you hear and are the largest speakers in the system.
They work much better in my Panamera. Why ? Because the door panel is much more solid. Actually, it does not sound too bad in the Pana at all (the Pana has a much larger interior volume which also contributes to better sound, must not forget).
In the 911 the door panel is made from very light materials (and that is good of course) but throw in a speaker that creates low frequency sounds (bass) and the entire door panel becomes a rather bad speaker membrane (just open up and hold your hand against the panel). The sound as a result is what would be called "colored" right up to distorted. From an acoustic point of view this is pretty much a disaster.
Changing the speaker is good but does not solve this issue.
Burmester gets around this very simply: Don't route any bass to these speakers - rather use the single bass speaker in the dash for that. Bose has this as well but it's cutoff for the doors is simply not steep enough.
The Burmester thus tends to sound a bit tinny until you turn up the bass a bit to give it a more even report. But the main thing is: No bass to the doors - that's the trick.
So, what to do ?
Stiffen and dampen the door panel certainly can be done. Some wooden ribs would likely help a lot (wood is good when it comes to accoustics, chip board is great, essentially no self resonance if you take care of correct shape). But that is a lot of work.
Go the Burmester route is an obvious solution. I don't want to do a lot of effort as this is not the purpose of my 911 but if I can improve something with a relatively small amount of effort then that is OK.
My thinking is to install a single amp and sub woofer in the dash to take care of bass and simply cut bass away from everything else by means of a simple active filter in front of the existing amp.
Just need to figure out how to open up the dash, that is one area I have not had the need to fix rattles (yet).
Of course, it is still not a surround system after that - it's still a normal stereo system. However I think it would be much improved even without replacing the speakers.
Rainier
I have worked all areas of the car to get rid of a multitude of rattle and squeek sources so I have had a good look at the speakers.
I have a background in electronics design and many years ago designed hifi systems and speakers for a German company before I started my own company designing avionics for aircraft.
Anyway, the speakers used in the base system are not exactly what I would call "state of the art", however, since this is a 911 and it's purpose is not a music hall that is fine by me.
The basic sound system is actually not that bad - however it does have one single major problem which also affects the Bose in the same way: The door speakers. They are the main source of what you hear and are the largest speakers in the system.
They work much better in my Panamera. Why ? Because the door panel is much more solid. Actually, it does not sound too bad in the Pana at all (the Pana has a much larger interior volume which also contributes to better sound, must not forget).
In the 911 the door panel is made from very light materials (and that is good of course) but throw in a speaker that creates low frequency sounds (bass) and the entire door panel becomes a rather bad speaker membrane (just open up and hold your hand against the panel). The sound as a result is what would be called "colored" right up to distorted. From an acoustic point of view this is pretty much a disaster.
Changing the speaker is good but does not solve this issue.
Burmester gets around this very simply: Don't route any bass to these speakers - rather use the single bass speaker in the dash for that. Bose has this as well but it's cutoff for the doors is simply not steep enough.
The Burmester thus tends to sound a bit tinny until you turn up the bass a bit to give it a more even report. But the main thing is: No bass to the doors - that's the trick.
So, what to do ?
Stiffen and dampen the door panel certainly can be done. Some wooden ribs would likely help a lot (wood is good when it comes to accoustics, chip board is great, essentially no self resonance if you take care of correct shape). But that is a lot of work.
Go the Burmester route is an obvious solution. I don't want to do a lot of effort as this is not the purpose of my 911 but if I can improve something with a relatively small amount of effort then that is OK.
My thinking is to install a single amp and sub woofer in the dash to take care of bass and simply cut bass away from everything else by means of a simple active filter in front of the existing amp.
Just need to figure out how to open up the dash, that is one area I have not had the need to fix rattles (yet).
Of course, it is still not a surround system after that - it's still a normal stereo system. However I think it would be much improved even without replacing the speakers.
Rainier
#19
10-25-2013, 08:58 AM
If it is not to rude to ask I would be curious how much these systems cost and how you would compare them to the Bose or other systems you have heard.
I would really like to upgrade but the other systems I have heard about are running 10-20K. The Bose is not near bad enough that I am going to put that much money in to a system. Plus you can't actually listen to them before ordering.
I would really like to upgrade but the other systems I have heard about are running 10-20K. The Bose is not near bad enough that I am going to put that much money in to a system. Plus you can't actually listen to them before ordering.
#20
12-03-2013, 05:24 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Posts: 356
Rep Power: 30 
Audiophiles pay attention to this...
I have the base system.
I have worked all areas of the car to get rid of a multitude of rattle and squeek sources so I have had a good look at the speakers.
I have a background in electronics design and many years ago designed hifi systems and speakers for a German company before I started my own company designing avionics for aircraft.
Anyway, the speakers used in the base system are not exactly what I would call "state of the art", however, since this is a 911 and it's purpose is not a music hall that is fine by me.
The basic sound system is actually not that bad - however it does have one single major problem which also affects the Bose in the same way: The door speakers. They are the main source of what you hear and are the largest speakers in the system.
They work much better in my Panamera. Why ? Because the door panel is much more solid. Actually, it does not sound too bad in the Pana at all (the Pana has a much larger interior volume which also contributes to better sound, must not forget).
In the 911 the door panel is made from very light materials (and that is good of course) but throw in a speaker that creates low frequency sounds (bass) and the entire door panel becomes a rather bad speaker membrane (just open up and hold your hand against the panel). The sound as a result is what would be called "colored" right up to distorted. From an acoustic point of view this is pretty much a disaster.
Changing the speaker is good but does not solve this issue.
Burmester gets around this very simply: Don't route any bass to these speakers - rather use the single bass speaker in the dash for that. Bose has this as well but it's cutoff for the doors is simply not steep enough.
The Burmester thus tends to sound a bit tinny until you turn up the bass a bit to give it a more even report. But the main thing is: No bass to the doors - that's the trick.
So, what to do ?
Stiffen and dampen the door panel certainly can be done. Some wooden ribs would likely help a lot (wood is good when it comes to accoustics, chip board is great, essentially no self resonance if you take care of correct shape). But that is a lot of work.
Go the Burmester route is an obvious solution. I don't want to do a lot of effort as this is not the purpose of my 911 but if I can improve something with a relatively small amount of effort then that is OK.
My thinking is to install a single amp and sub woofer in the dash to take care of bass and simply cut bass away from everything else by means of a simple active filter in front of the existing amp.
Just need to figure out how to open up the dash, that is one area I have not had the need to fix rattles (yet).
Of course, it is still not a surround system after that - it's still a normal stereo system. However I think it would be much improved even without replacing the speakers.
Rainier
I have worked all areas of the car to get rid of a multitude of rattle and squeek sources so I have had a good look at the speakers.
I have a background in electronics design and many years ago designed hifi systems and speakers for a German company before I started my own company designing avionics for aircraft.
Anyway, the speakers used in the base system are not exactly what I would call "state of the art", however, since this is a 911 and it's purpose is not a music hall that is fine by me.
The basic sound system is actually not that bad - however it does have one single major problem which also affects the Bose in the same way: The door speakers. They are the main source of what you hear and are the largest speakers in the system.
They work much better in my Panamera. Why ? Because the door panel is much more solid. Actually, it does not sound too bad in the Pana at all (the Pana has a much larger interior volume which also contributes to better sound, must not forget).
In the 911 the door panel is made from very light materials (and that is good of course) but throw in a speaker that creates low frequency sounds (bass) and the entire door panel becomes a rather bad speaker membrane (just open up and hold your hand against the panel). The sound as a result is what would be called "colored" right up to distorted. From an acoustic point of view this is pretty much a disaster.
Changing the speaker is good but does not solve this issue.
Burmester gets around this very simply: Don't route any bass to these speakers - rather use the single bass speaker in the dash for that. Bose has this as well but it's cutoff for the doors is simply not steep enough.
The Burmester thus tends to sound a bit tinny until you turn up the bass a bit to give it a more even report. But the main thing is: No bass to the doors - that's the trick.
So, what to do ?
Stiffen and dampen the door panel certainly can be done. Some wooden ribs would likely help a lot (wood is good when it comes to accoustics, chip board is great, essentially no self resonance if you take care of correct shape). But that is a lot of work.
Go the Burmester route is an obvious solution. I don't want to do a lot of effort as this is not the purpose of my 911 but if I can improve something with a relatively small amount of effort then that is OK.
My thinking is to install a single amp and sub woofer in the dash to take care of bass and simply cut bass away from everything else by means of a simple active filter in front of the existing amp.
Just need to figure out how to open up the dash, that is one area I have not had the need to fix rattles (yet).
Of course, it is still not a surround system after that - it's still a normal stereo system. However I think it would be much improved even without replacing the speakers.
Rainier
I'm repp'n ya just because your so awesome!
I posted this awhile back in another post here on 6speedonline:
I have been unable to hear the, "Base" system or a Burmeister that comes in the 911, and was wondering if anyone was actually able to compare the Base vs the Bose or can comment on the Base?
On the Bose, has anyone felt that when the base hits, the door speakers, especially when my leg in leaning on the door while in the driving position, seem to be mounted in a flexible part of the door panel? In all of my stereo system's, it has been explained to me that the entire speaker must not move and should be mounted solidly to a solid area. I felt that the entire speaker assembly, was flexing as the base would hit, minimizing the sound that should be coming from the speaker. I'm not sure if I'm explaining it well, but has anyone experienced this?
I'm asking because, I hope the Burmeister is installed, "A Little differently..."
On the Bose, has anyone felt that when the base hits, the door speakers, especially when my leg in leaning on the door while in the driving position, seem to be mounted in a flexible part of the door panel? In all of my stereo system's, it has been explained to me that the entire speaker must not move and should be mounted solidly to a solid area. I felt that the entire speaker assembly, was flexing as the base would hit, minimizing the sound that should be coming from the speaker. I'm not sure if I'm explaining it well, but has anyone experienced this?
I'm asking because, I hope the Burmeister is installed, "A Little differently..."
I'm eager to hear your thought's or designs on the 911
#21
12-03-2013, 11:48 PM
I have the Bose system in both my '13 991S and '13 Cayenne GTS.
The sound quality in the GTS is FAR superior to the 991S. Don't know if it's the same amplification specs, but I think the Cayenne has more and better speakers, probably due to the additional space and speaker enclosure depths.
The sound quality in the GTS is FAR superior to the 991S. Don't know if it's the same amplification specs, but I think the Cayenne has more and better speakers, probably due to the additional space and speaker enclosure depths.
#22
12-04-2013, 07:07 AM
I have the base system.
I have worked all areas of the car to get rid of a multitude of rattle and squeek sources so I have had a good look at the speakers.
I have a background in electronics design and many years ago designed hifi systems and speakers for a German company before I started my own company designing avionics for aircraft.
Anyway, the speakers used in the base system are not exactly what I would call "state of the art", however, since this is a 911 and it's purpose is not a music hall that is fine by me.
The basic sound system is actually not that bad - however it does have one single major problem which also affects the Bose in the same way: The door speakers. They are the main source of what you hear and are the largest speakers in the system.
They work much better in my Panamera. Why ? Because the door panel is much more solid. Actually, it does not sound too bad in the Pana at all (the Pana has a much larger interior volume which also contributes to better sound, must not forget).
In the 911 the door panel is made from very light materials (and that is good of course) but throw in a speaker that creates low frequency sounds (bass) and the entire door panel becomes a rather bad speaker membrane (just open up and hold your hand against the panel). The sound as a result is what would be called "colored" right up to distorted. From an acoustic point of view this is pretty much a disaster.
Changing the speaker is good but does not solve this issue.
Burmester gets around this very simply: Don't route any bass to these speakers - rather use the single bass speaker in the dash for that. Bose has this as well but it's cutoff for the doors is simply not steep enough.
The Burmester thus tends to sound a bit tinny until you turn up the bass a bit to give it a more even report. But the main thing is: No bass to the doors - that's the trick.
So, what to do ?
Stiffen and dampen the door panel certainly can be done. Some wooden ribs would likely help a lot (wood is good when it comes to accoustics, chip board is great, essentially no self resonance if you take care of correct shape). But that is a lot of work.
Go the Burmester route is an obvious solution. I don't want to do a lot of effort as this is not the purpose of my 911 but if I can improve something with a relatively small amount of effort then that is OK.
My thinking is to install a single amp and sub woofer in the dash to take care of bass and simply cut bass away from everything else by means of a simple active filter in front of the existing amp.
Just need to figure out how to open up the dash, that is one area I have not had the need to fix rattles (yet).
Of course, it is still not a surround system after that - it's still a normal stereo system. However I think it would be much improved even without replacing the speakers.
Rainier
I have worked all areas of the car to get rid of a multitude of rattle and squeek sources so I have had a good look at the speakers.
I have a background in electronics design and many years ago designed hifi systems and speakers for a German company before I started my own company designing avionics for aircraft.
Anyway, the speakers used in the base system are not exactly what I would call "state of the art", however, since this is a 911 and it's purpose is not a music hall that is fine by me.
The basic sound system is actually not that bad - however it does have one single major problem which also affects the Bose in the same way: The door speakers. They are the main source of what you hear and are the largest speakers in the system.
They work much better in my Panamera. Why ? Because the door panel is much more solid. Actually, it does not sound too bad in the Pana at all (the Pana has a much larger interior volume which also contributes to better sound, must not forget).
In the 911 the door panel is made from very light materials (and that is good of course) but throw in a speaker that creates low frequency sounds (bass) and the entire door panel becomes a rather bad speaker membrane (just open up and hold your hand against the panel). The sound as a result is what would be called "colored" right up to distorted. From an acoustic point of view this is pretty much a disaster.
Changing the speaker is good but does not solve this issue.
Burmester gets around this very simply: Don't route any bass to these speakers - rather use the single bass speaker in the dash for that. Bose has this as well but it's cutoff for the doors is simply not steep enough.
The Burmester thus tends to sound a bit tinny until you turn up the bass a bit to give it a more even report. But the main thing is: No bass to the doors - that's the trick.
So, what to do ?
Stiffen and dampen the door panel certainly can be done. Some wooden ribs would likely help a lot (wood is good when it comes to accoustics, chip board is great, essentially no self resonance if you take care of correct shape). But that is a lot of work.
Go the Burmester route is an obvious solution. I don't want to do a lot of effort as this is not the purpose of my 911 but if I can improve something with a relatively small amount of effort then that is OK.
My thinking is to install a single amp and sub woofer in the dash to take care of bass and simply cut bass away from everything else by means of a simple active filter in front of the existing amp.
Just need to figure out how to open up the dash, that is one area I have not had the need to fix rattles (yet).
Of course, it is still not a surround system after that - it's still a normal stereo system. However I think it would be much improved even without replacing the speakers.
Rainier
#23
12-04-2013, 08:40 AM
Registered User
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cape Town - Somerset West
Posts: 302
Rep Power: 35 So what have you come up with? I'm still debating on getting the BOSE system and strengthening the door panels as well as Sound Wall, and sound proof insulation on doors which I did do on my Tacoma. No rattles, no speaker movement just clean sound.
I'm eager to hear your thought's or designs on the 911
I'm eager to hear your thought's or designs on the 911
Might have it back before the 13th this Month - at least I am hoping for that as the workshop closes for a Month then so that would mean another month driving no 911...
Rainier
#24
12-04-2013, 03:11 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Central Time Zone, US
Posts: 130
Rep Power: 27 It's only good if you don't know the difference between loud and accurate sound reproduction.
#25
12-04-2013, 05:08 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Posts: 356
Rep Power: 30 
991 stereo options
Bull. There are HUGE response gaps in the Bose - several >10dB dips and peaks. If you record a piano playing a constant-dynamic chromatic scale across the middle 5 octaves, you'll find there are whole portions of that scale missing and a half dozen notes that are twice as loud as the average.
It's only good if you don't know the difference between loud and accurate sound reproduction.
It's only good if you don't know the difference between loud and accurate sound reproduction.
Buy base stereo and upgrade aftermarket?
Buy BOSE and restructure mids?
Buy Burmeister and figure a way to remove tinniness?
Lastly, remove radio and create storage area...?
#26
12-04-2013, 11:07 PM
Registered User
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cape Town - Somerset West
Posts: 302
Rep Power: 35 All I am saying is my own opinion - nothing more.
The 991 is a great car but it is a 911. 911's are not known for their lovely music hall acoustics. That simply is not their purpose. Nevertheless, you get an option to include some vastly overpriced medium or high end audio system. That may or may not be the most important thing on a 911. It's not for me. But that's just me.
The Bose system is overrated in just about any car I have heard it in. It is a fairly basic system with basic surround sound. Nothing more.
Any audio system in a car (any car) is entirely dependent on the speakers and how they are fitted into their respective fittings and panels which form part of the sound system (which is why, when you buy a good hifi speaker it comes in a box - probably a big one and one that is very carefully designed). The box is not there just to give you a nice looking piece of furniture to stack your Christopherous magazines on.
So - the simple answer is that even a very basic stereo can sound amazing if the speakers are correctly chosen, located and installed in such a way that the speakers can convert the very accurate electrical sound signal into equaly accurate and proportional sound waves without any degradation at any frequency and without any phase shifting.
This latter part is not easy in a 911. Doable - yes, but with compromises. The Bose installation in the 911 lacks much in this department.
The Burmester is not much different - it is forced to use the same speaker locations and panels - nothing much changes. However, to their credit, they at least seem to have taken a good look at what they had to deal with and then designed their system around it to best effect. Does that result in a good Hifi ? Nope. Compared to a well installed Hifi in your house it's pretty bad. Not its fault. Its a good system in the wrong place. But since they put in a bit of effort and put on some electronic band-aids where they could the result is quite acceptable (given the starting line they had).
So, again in my opininion, even the base system can be made to sound pretty good with some minor effort (as it has received nothing of that sort from Porsche). Perhaps I will give it a go when I get my car back.
If little effort results in a good improvement - then that's OK.
But it is not important - it's a 911. It has a few other things that are way more important.
Rainier
#27
12-04-2013, 11:55 PM
I will be surprised what can be done with little money. No need to spend a lot. Stiffen and dampen the door panels and let the guys
Last edited by xcvdxcv; 12-05-2013 at 12:01 AM.
#28
12-05-2013, 12:02 PM
hello
it 's a french "PORCHISTE"
for your information
http://intl.jlaudio.com/car-audio-st...ox-porsche-911
2000 euros
it s possible for 991 ?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and simply operation
http://www.focal.com/en/plug-play/25...059750129.html
small contribution for you
thanks
bye
it 's a french "PORCHISTE"
for your information
http://intl.jlaudio.com/car-audio-st...ox-porsche-911
2000 euros
it s possible for 991 ?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and simply operation
http://www.focal.com/en/plug-play/25...059750129.html
small contribution for you
thanks
bye
#29
03-02-2016, 08:13 PM
Original Speaker Size in door area
Apologies for lifting an old thread back from the dead, but I recently did a full system in a 991 if you're still interested OP.
Used a JL Clean Sweep to re-equalize the factory radio, paired with a JL Audio digital amp and German Maestro speakers all around. Mounted all of the components underneath a false floor so the owner could still utilize the trunk space. Check it out:
If you don't like the factory radio, I also did one of the first 9X1 headunit swaps, with this Cayman S preferring Alpine over factory.
So yes, these cars CAN have aftermarket sound integrated w PCM or with a replacement radio
Used a JL Clean Sweep to re-equalize the factory radio, paired with a JL Audio digital amp and German Maestro speakers all around. Mounted all of the components underneath a false floor so the owner could still utilize the trunk space. Check it out:
If you don't like the factory radio, I also did one of the first 9X1 headunit swaps, with this Cayman S preferring Alpine over factory.
So yes, these cars CAN have aftermarket sound integrated w PCM or with a replacement radio
I saw your post, it was a very nice job. I'm doing something similar in my 2014 981 Boxster, but was curious about the size of the speakers in the doors. What's the size I should by 6 1/2 or 8 3/4?
#30
04-14-2016, 12:26 AM
Coming back to door flexible panel holding the speakers, this is true that it prevents from driving real bass from the door. This is unbelievable how it can move and vibrate with bass.
You have some posts dealing about that adding some layers of carbon or else fibers with resin. On my side I fixed the problem by adding bitume insulation (5mm thickness), ok 3 kg more fore each door but it works clearly well and can be removed if needed...
You have some posts dealing about that adding some layers of carbon or else fibers with resin. On my side I fixed the problem by adding bitume insulation (5mm thickness), ok 3 kg more fore each door but it works clearly well and can be removed if needed...