Engine stumble/hesitation around 2500 RPM?
#631
03-07-2017, 04:06 PM
Good luck with your journey. I hope you have enough time and money to pursue this. Personally, after years of driving cars that never seem to do exactly what they advertise, I just move on to the next one. My current 2013 BMW 535 does the following: drops calls, fails to connect phone via bluetooth, has difficulty connecting the iPhone via USB and navigating my music collection, sometimes fails to recognize the keyless go key (unless I hold it to the steering column - intermittent), locks and unlocks the doors spontaneously from time to time. Other than that, the car is great. After running back and forth to the dealer several times, I got the phone working (more or less). The rest of it? Just waiting to return the car off lease and pick up my new 911.
I make too much money in my day jobs to waste time and money chasing something that will never be fixed and in your case, I'm betting Porsche just has way more money than you do to spend in court, so good luck with all that.
What does seamless mean? How do you know the stumble is related to the various cam? Have you had an engineer tell you that? Will he testify? What is his assessment of the "fix"? Is the car actually broken? Do you expect perfection from the machine? What would you consider to be acceptable in terms of engine smoothness? Is a lumpy idle OK? What about a cough and hiccup when the car is cold? Shrieking belt noise OK when cold? Squealing brakes OK when cool? There are some of the questions you'll have to answer. I'm not trying to be a jerk - but you have to appreciate that everything could stand some improvement in life.
Nothing is perfect. Maybe the engine management could be better than your car's. Since the 1950's Porsche has learned something about design and engineering each and every year. Think of it, look at the 2017 911 its drive and capabilities as compared to the 996, 996, etc going all the way back to the first 911s. How do you think the current car got so good? Porsche learned stuff. So the engine management in the 2017 is an evolution of what is in your car. That's called progress. The clutch is better too. Does that mean that the heavy clutch is a defect in the earlier car? What about the steering? Much improved in the 991.2, also the PDK - much less jerking on downshifts. Does that mean that yours is defective because its not perfectly smooth?
The one thing that will kill your lemon case is the fact that this is a fairly prevalent "condition". Lots of cars are doing it. Maybe is just "characteristic" of the car?
Let us know how you make out with your lemon case.
I make too much money in my day jobs to waste time and money chasing something that will never be fixed and in your case, I'm betting Porsche just has way more money than you do to spend in court, so good luck with all that.
What does seamless mean? How do you know the stumble is related to the various cam? Have you had an engineer tell you that? Will he testify? What is his assessment of the "fix"? Is the car actually broken? Do you expect perfection from the machine? What would you consider to be acceptable in terms of engine smoothness? Is a lumpy idle OK? What about a cough and hiccup when the car is cold? Shrieking belt noise OK when cold? Squealing brakes OK when cool? There are some of the questions you'll have to answer. I'm not trying to be a jerk - but you have to appreciate that everything could stand some improvement in life.
Nothing is perfect. Maybe the engine management could be better than your car's. Since the 1950's Porsche has learned something about design and engineering each and every year. Think of it, look at the 2017 911 its drive and capabilities as compared to the 996, 996, etc going all the way back to the first 911s. How do you think the current car got so good? Porsche learned stuff. So the engine management in the 2017 is an evolution of what is in your car. That's called progress. The clutch is better too. Does that mean that the heavy clutch is a defect in the earlier car? What about the steering? Much improved in the 991.2, also the PDK - much less jerking on downshifts. Does that mean that yours is defective because its not perfectly smooth?
The one thing that will kill your lemon case is the fact that this is a fairly prevalent "condition". Lots of cars are doing it. Maybe is just "characteristic" of the car?
Let us know how you make out with your lemon case.
A couple of my experiences WRT the above.
1. The company tried to use the prevalent "condition" and "characteristic" of the car and lost
2. The lemon law filing cost me virtually nothing other than my time, some gas getting to the dealership a couple of times and briefing copies. Though annoying, it was not difficult if you follow the instruction they will provide you, address all the issues, provide the documentation (that demands you require the tech to drive with you and see the issue and write it down- and give them a couple opportunities to fix it) and follow a logical argument. I understand that's more than some people want to go through, however.
ChuckJ
#632
03-07-2017, 07:02 PM
Grover:
A couple of my experiences WRT the above.
1. The company tried to use the prevalent "condition" and "characteristic" of the car and lost
2. The lemon law filing cost me virtually nothing other than my time, some gas getting to the dealership a couple of times and briefing copies. Though annoying, it was not difficult if you follow the instruction they will provide you, address all the issues, provide the documentation (that demands you require the tech to drive with you and see the issue and write it down- and give them a couple opportunities to fix it) and follow a logical argument. I understand that's more than some people want to go through, however.
ChuckJ
A couple of my experiences WRT the above.
1. The company tried to use the prevalent "condition" and "characteristic" of the car and lost
2. The lemon law filing cost me virtually nothing other than my time, some gas getting to the dealership a couple of times and briefing copies. Though annoying, it was not difficult if you follow the instruction they will provide you, address all the issues, provide the documentation (that demands you require the tech to drive with you and see the issue and write it down- and give them a couple opportunities to fix it) and follow a logical argument. I understand that's more than some people want to go through, however.
ChuckJ
#633
03-08-2017, 09:22 AM
To date, I don't think anyone has followed the Lemon Law approach and I'm with you, anxious to see someone who is upset with this anomaly with their car try the approach I was successful at. When I began the process and received the instructions from the arbitrator contractor (in my case BBB) I had no confidence I would win because it was not a major issue (like stalling in an intersection) and the instructions force you to prove it's unsafe. But safety can be perception and if you perceive a safety issue you can describe it in the brief. If, on the other hand, you can't take the car in for repair twice, demonstrate the issue to a tech, and make the safety case you are not likely to win.
After going through it I was pleased to find the arbitrator process has integrity and strength. But it is like going to court, you have to present an airtight case which means having an answer for all the questions presented in the instructions. Seeing what Porsche has done with the other two cases I described, I'm guessing there will be a negotiation before the hearing.
ChuckJ
PS I offered to drive a new car with a tech to show them and they declined so I used the approach that I had brought it in for the first service with no issue, then soon after with the issue.
Last edited by ChuckJ; 03-08-2017 at 09:38 AM.
#634
03-08-2017, 09:58 AM
I'm a bit confused. Are you saying you have been successful in the past getting a car with a stumble "lemoned"?
#635
03-08-2017, 12:09 PM
I'm the kind of guy that hates it when things are not operating properly. When my 2012 991.1 didn't have the stumble, I was very grateful and decided I better just keep this one forever. But if the 991.2s don't show any other issues I'll probably end up buying one because I think the risk of a stumble is remote given the turbos. I'm giving them an opportunity to show their flaws over time first.
ChuckJ
#636
03-09-2017, 05:06 AM
I have no doubt the Porsche engineers are aware of the engine stumble you are complaining about and have investigated the cause. If the 991.2 doesn't suffer from it, it's likely because the engineers looked at the 991.1 engine design, saw the problem, said "our bad" and redesigned around the problem. Who knows what they did - just that it appears the stumble is now gone. But .... I'm sure some other irritating quirk will show up in the 991.2 that will be corrected in the 992 and so the show goes on.
Is the stumble irritating? No doubt. Can you make the case that it is a safety issue? I doubt it. Do you think a lemon application will get Porsche to the table to negotiate a settlement? I'd say not likely. As much as Porsche wants to maintain its image, if the current design can't be easily fixed and they buy your car back, with the internet, word will get out fast and people with the problem will be lining up to get bought out. Bit of a problem for Porsche.
Nick Murray (YouTube) had a host of problems with his 991.1. He came to an agreement with Porsche and got out of his car and into a 991.2. His car now sits on a used car lot somewhere waiting for a more forgiving owner. Was it a Lemon Law application that got him there or his Youtube activity? I don't know, but a Nick does. You should check with him. I'm an amateur in this area, but he is an expert who will know what might bring you success.
Maybe you should follow Nick's idea. Start a YouTube channel, get 100,000 Porsche enthusiasts to follow it and get Porsche to the table?
I don't have that much time or energy. I'd just trade my car for a 991.2. It's a better car in almost every way that counts (OK, it doesn't sound like a NA car) and doesn't have the problem.
Last edited by grover432; 03-09-2017 at 05:10 AM.
#637
04-14-2017, 01:59 PM
I spoke to a law firm that specializes in Lemon Law here in NY state. He indicated that the problem needs to be "significant", which I also read on a NY state website describing the law. He didn't think the stumbling I described would qualify as "significant", especially since Porsche claims its normal.
#638
04-17-2017, 04:37 PM
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Oh but to walk in another man's shoes..
#640
04-21-2017, 11:06 PM
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Why the need for a "more forgiving owner"? Because he wasn't forgiving enough?
Nick's car was a well documented, unmitigated disaster. In spite of this, Porsche STILL put this dead horse back on the market and it's now rotting in Miami.
By Jove, Porsche was NOT going to take that car back and will happily take the risk of its very public issues blowing up all over again.
Perhaps the reason for those pesky internet forum "engineers" is that Porsche hung them out to dry with the stumble issue - so they were left looking for a solution themselves.
Spreadsheets, surveys, build dates, fuel types - all done in an attempt to narrow down why some stumble and others don't. And all because Porsche simply would not acknowledge the issue.
To suggest that trading an affected / defective car for another Porsche is the solution, while at the same time suggesting that they know and don't care to fix the problem, is asinine.
But I'll make sure to contact Nick, so that he gives me a pair.
Nick's car was a well documented, unmitigated disaster. In spite of this, Porsche STILL put this dead horse back on the market and it's now rotting in Miami.
By Jove, Porsche was NOT going to take that car back and will happily take the risk of its very public issues blowing up all over again.
Perhaps the reason for those pesky internet forum "engineers" is that Porsche hung them out to dry with the stumble issue - so they were left looking for a solution themselves.
Spreadsheets, surveys, build dates, fuel types - all done in an attempt to narrow down why some stumble and others don't. And all because Porsche simply would not acknowledge the issue.
To suggest that trading an affected / defective car for another Porsche is the solution, while at the same time suggesting that they know and don't care to fix the problem, is asinine.
But I'll make sure to contact Nick, so that he gives me a pair.
#641
04-22-2017, 03:30 AM
Why the need for a "more forgiving owner"? Because he wasn't forgiving enough?
Nick's car was a well documented, unmitigated disaster. In spite of this, Porsche STILL put this dead horse back on the market and it's now rotting in Miami.
By Jove, Porsche was NOT going to take that car back and will happily take the risk of its very public issues blowing up all over again.
Perhaps the reason for those pesky internet forum "engineers" is that Porsche hung them out to dry with the stumble issue - so they were left looking for a solution themselves.
Spreadsheets, surveys, build dates, fuel types - all done in an attempt to narrow down why some stumble and others don't. And all because Porsche simply would not acknowledge the issue.
To suggest that trading an affected / defective car for another Porsche is the solution, while at the same time suggesting that they know and don't care to fix the problem, is asinine.
But I'll make sure to contact Nick, so that he gives me a pair.
Nick's car was a well documented, unmitigated disaster. In spite of this, Porsche STILL put this dead horse back on the market and it's now rotting in Miami.
By Jove, Porsche was NOT going to take that car back and will happily take the risk of its very public issues blowing up all over again.
Perhaps the reason for those pesky internet forum "engineers" is that Porsche hung them out to dry with the stumble issue - so they were left looking for a solution themselves.
Spreadsheets, surveys, build dates, fuel types - all done in an attempt to narrow down why some stumble and others don't. And all because Porsche simply would not acknowledge the issue.
To suggest that trading an affected / defective car for another Porsche is the solution, while at the same time suggesting that they know and don't care to fix the problem, is asinine.
But I'll make sure to contact Nick, so that he gives me a pair.
The person who goes after Porsche for a slight stutter at a particular engine rpm either has a lot a lot of time on their hands, is naive or doesnt mind the high blood pressure that comes along with fighting what is usually a losing battle.
Maybe you'd do fine with the lemonade game. I'd just trade the car and move on to one that doesn't have that characteristic. But, like I've posted before, go after Porsche and keep us posted, I'll grab the popcorn.
#642
04-26-2017, 05:14 AM
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Well, I have been too busy to investigate the lemon law option but my attorney is
still standing by. I did bring my car to my dealer and the mechanic who installed the X51. We drove it and he agreed it isn't right. After 2 days and all the reflashes and updates he could do, plus a PDK trans & clutch oil change, it only got slightly better. He now thinks it is PDK related and next week is getting the Regional Porsche Rep involved. They want to try a new PDK! My warranty runs out May 23! What do I have to lose! Stay tuned!
still standing by. I did bring my car to my dealer and the mechanic who installed the X51. We drove it and he agreed it isn't right. After 2 days and all the reflashes and updates he could do, plus a PDK trans & clutch oil change, it only got slightly better. He now thinks it is PDK related and next week is getting the Regional Porsche Rep involved. They want to try a new PDK! My warranty runs out May 23! What do I have to lose! Stay tuned!
#643
04-26-2017, 09:03 AM
Well, I have been too busy to investigate the lemon law option but my attorney is
still standing by. I did bring my car to my dealer and the mechanic who installed the X51. We drove it and he agreed it isn't right. After 2 days and all the reflashes and updates he could do, plus a PDK trans & clutch oil change, it only got slightly better. He now thinks it is PDK related and next week is getting the Regional Porsche Rep involved. They want to try a new PDK! My warranty runs out May 23! What do I have to lose! Stay tuned!
still standing by. I did bring my car to my dealer and the mechanic who installed the X51. We drove it and he agreed it isn't right. After 2 days and all the reflashes and updates he could do, plus a PDK trans & clutch oil change, it only got slightly better. He now thinks it is PDK related and next week is getting the Regional Porsche Rep involved. They want to try a new PDK! My warranty runs out May 23! What do I have to lose! Stay tuned!
It is NOT PDK related. I have a 7MT.
#644
04-26-2017, 09:06 AM
Well, I have been too busy to investigate the lemon law option but my attorney is
still standing by. I did bring my car to my dealer and the mechanic who installed the X51. We drove it and he agreed it isn't right. After 2 days and all the reflashes and updates he could do, plus a PDK trans & clutch oil change, it only got slightly better. He now thinks it is PDK related and next week is getting the Regional Porsche Rep involved. They want to try a new PDK! My warranty runs out May 23! What do I have to lose! Stay tuned!
still standing by. I did bring my car to my dealer and the mechanic who installed the X51. We drove it and he agreed it isn't right. After 2 days and all the reflashes and updates he could do, plus a PDK trans & clutch oil change, it only got slightly better. He now thinks it is PDK related and next week is getting the Regional Porsche Rep involved. They want to try a new PDK! My warranty runs out May 23! What do I have to lose! Stay tuned!
#645
04-26-2017, 09:07 AM
Well, I have been too busy to investigate the lemon law option but my attorney is
still standing by. I did bring my car to my dealer and the mechanic who installed the X51. We drove it and he agreed it isn't right. After 2 days and all the reflashes and updates he could do, plus a PDK trans & clutch oil change, it only got slightly better. He now thinks it is PDK related and next week is getting the Regional Porsche Rep involved. They want to try a new PDK! My warranty runs out May 23! What do I have to lose! Stay tuned!
still standing by. I did bring my car to my dealer and the mechanic who installed the X51. We drove it and he agreed it isn't right. After 2 days and all the reflashes and updates he could do, plus a PDK trans & clutch oil change, it only got slightly better. He now thinks it is PDK related and next week is getting the Regional Porsche Rep involved. They want to try a new PDK! My warranty runs out May 23! What do I have to lose! Stay tuned!
ChuckJ
Last edited by ChuckJ; 04-26-2017 at 09:11 AM.