manual vs. automatic?
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I drove a manual and a PDK back to back before deciding on PDK. I really wanted to favor the manual but it seemed more clumsy, less satisfying overall(of course some of that was the driver not the car I'm sure). In the end just personal preference really. I have not regretted PDK for a minute. Smooth, effortless even intuitive when in auto Sport mode. Just as fun to drive in my opinion in manual mode. Once you adapt, I doubt you would go back for what it's worth.
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I really wanted manual, but I felt like the S did not have enough torque to accelerate quick enough from low revs. 
Keeping a decent amount of torque on tap at low revs requires a lot of shifting.
If you like winding the car out and keeping the revs up, then get a manual.
If you want power on tap, when driving normally, then you need the PDK.
Personally I prefer a manual for track driving, because you always know when & where you will be shifting.
Its the street driving where you need PDK, so you can deal with unexpected situations, as you won't always be prepared to make a sudden downshift.
In both environments the PDK helps you avoid shifting errors, so that is most likely the biggest factor in peoples decision.
For what we pay for these cars, Porsche should be giving us an extra .5 litre and 50ft-lb more torque.
In which case, I would have gone manual all the way.
To me the biggest shame on Porsche is not offering the Turbo with a manual as it has ample torque for it.
Keeping a decent amount of torque on tap at low revs requires a lot of shifting.
If you like winding the car out and keeping the revs up, then get a manual.
If you want power on tap, when driving normally, then you need the PDK.
Personally I prefer a manual for track driving, because you always know when & where you will be shifting.
Its the street driving where you need PDK, so you can deal with unexpected situations, as you won't always be prepared to make a sudden downshift.
In both environments the PDK helps you avoid shifting errors, so that is most likely the biggest factor in peoples decision.
For what we pay for these cars, Porsche should be giving us an extra .5 litre and 50ft-lb more torque.
In which case, I would have gone manual all the way.
To me the biggest shame on Porsche is not offering the Turbo with a manual as it has ample torque for it.
Last edited by lunarx; Nov 23, 2013 at 10:44 AM.
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OP, search really is your friend.
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...vs-manual.html
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...nsmission.html
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...ners-here.html
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...k-regrets.html
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...vs-manual.html
....... and the debate will go on....and on.... and on!
Re. "Does driving a 991 with PDK feel less like a true sportscar??"
Entirely depends on what you mean by a "true sportscar"!
My only suggestion, and as many have pointed out, .... try both and buy what you like.
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...vs-manual.html
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...nsmission.html
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...ners-here.html
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...k-regrets.html
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...vs-manual.html
....... and the debate will go on....and on.... and on!
Re. "Does driving a 991 with PDK feel less like a true sportscar??"
Entirely depends on what you mean by a "true sportscar"!
My only suggestion, and as many have pointed out, .... try both and buy what you like.
Last edited by Haku; Nov 23, 2013 at 12:10 PM.
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Something I posted on rennlist a while back ...
After living with the car a bit more - but still only about 3500km on the clock at the moment - observations, random thoughts, ramblings about PDK vs MT, PDK Auto vs PDK Manual.
I was out a few days ago for a longish trip to the Spa Francorchamps track in my PDK C2 for a trackday (not as participant, spectator only), so I had plenty different types of driving to do. Long tedious highways, with both low traffic and cluttered with traffic. Gorgeous fast hilly bendy highways leading up to Spa Francorchamps region. Gorgeous slowish hilly and very bendy backroads around the F1 track
First of all. How on earth can you PDK guys be content with just leaving it in auto all the time and never enjoy manual mode ?
I read on forums and from journos that it is telepathic in auto mode, that it shifts when you would shift yourself. NOT a chance ! Mind you, it's as good as any reactive system can be expected to be. But it is only that, a reactive system, that reacts to sensor inputs and driver inputs. But it is nowhere near as good as a driver that does the shifts himself in PDK manual mode ! That same driver scans and sees the road and traffic, and makes proactive decisions on how to set up (throttle, braking, shifting, steering) his car for what he sees. Exactly this is something PDK can not do because it just can't see what the driver sees ! Manual mode is soooo much better, smoother, responsive, maybe even faster and with less drama than it was in auto mode for me at brisk 7/10 to 8/10 driving on hilly bendy backroads in Sport mode! Even on cluttered straight boring highways where I had to brake and accelerate often with cars weaving in and out of my lane, PDK in auto mode sucked. Reaction time of shifting down was way to long. My proactive manual downshift allowed me to have accelerated past a car that had moved out of the way before the PDK Auto had figured out I was giving it more and more throttle because it refused to downshift and has absolutely no grunt whatsoever in 7th. Granted this was in normal mode, PSE off for my stealth mode on the highways as to minimize attraction of the men in blue.
I see only 3 cases where I prefer the PDK in Auto mode.
First a straight line drag race when it makes perfect upshifts at redline which obviously I can't, but I don't call that driving a car so I don't care about that.
Second on an open stretch of highway with low traffic where you very rarely have to brake and accelerate again for a car that moves over.
Third in very cluttered city traffic.
All three cases have absolutely nothing to do with driving and enjoying a Porsche like it was meant to. But still, those cases are part of our lives (well, not the first one obviously), so I'm glad they put in that Auto mode for those tedious times.
In conclusion, with of the above in mind, thinking about it on the drive home, I can understand why some of you MT diehards say the PDK sucks if they only tried it in Auto mode. Actually, I think it takes the mindset of a skilled MT driver to get the best of a PDK equipped 911, and that's only in manual mode. But in that case, it really is the next step, the best gearbox of this moment in time, that let's you have total control and involvement but withouth the inefficient hassle of declutching, rowing gears, loosing connection with your car. So IMO if you are only used to driving Auto slushboxes, and you move on to PDK and leave it in Auto, you are missing out, and yes, maybe in that case you should get a MT first to get into that MT mindset before you move on to a PDK. For me, I still think the PDK is way better than MT, and I still am convinced it is the right choice for me. But now I can see why someone would opt for a MT, because PDK in Auto just doesn't cut it ! Full enjoyment and efficiency can only be ad in PDK Manual mode, with a diehard/skilled MT driver at the wheel.
YMMV
After living with the car a bit more - but still only about 3500km on the clock at the moment - observations, random thoughts, ramblings about PDK vs MT, PDK Auto vs PDK Manual.
I was out a few days ago for a longish trip to the Spa Francorchamps track in my PDK C2 for a trackday (not as participant, spectator only), so I had plenty different types of driving to do. Long tedious highways, with both low traffic and cluttered with traffic. Gorgeous fast hilly bendy highways leading up to Spa Francorchamps region. Gorgeous slowish hilly and very bendy backroads around the F1 track
First of all. How on earth can you PDK guys be content with just leaving it in auto all the time and never enjoy manual mode ?
I read on forums and from journos that it is telepathic in auto mode, that it shifts when you would shift yourself. NOT a chance ! Mind you, it's as good as any reactive system can be expected to be. But it is only that, a reactive system, that reacts to sensor inputs and driver inputs. But it is nowhere near as good as a driver that does the shifts himself in PDK manual mode ! That same driver scans and sees the road and traffic, and makes proactive decisions on how to set up (throttle, braking, shifting, steering) his car for what he sees. Exactly this is something PDK can not do because it just can't see what the driver sees ! Manual mode is soooo much better, smoother, responsive, maybe even faster and with less drama than it was in auto mode for me at brisk 7/10 to 8/10 driving on hilly bendy backroads in Sport mode! Even on cluttered straight boring highways where I had to brake and accelerate often with cars weaving in and out of my lane, PDK in auto mode sucked. Reaction time of shifting down was way to long. My proactive manual downshift allowed me to have accelerated past a car that had moved out of the way before the PDK Auto had figured out I was giving it more and more throttle because it refused to downshift and has absolutely no grunt whatsoever in 7th. Granted this was in normal mode, PSE off for my stealth mode on the highways as to minimize attraction of the men in blue.
I see only 3 cases where I prefer the PDK in Auto mode.
First a straight line drag race when it makes perfect upshifts at redline which obviously I can't, but I don't call that driving a car so I don't care about that.
Second on an open stretch of highway with low traffic where you very rarely have to brake and accelerate again for a car that moves over.
Third in very cluttered city traffic.
All three cases have absolutely nothing to do with driving and enjoying a Porsche like it was meant to. But still, those cases are part of our lives (well, not the first one obviously), so I'm glad they put in that Auto mode for those tedious times.
In conclusion, with of the above in mind, thinking about it on the drive home, I can understand why some of you MT diehards say the PDK sucks if they only tried it in Auto mode. Actually, I think it takes the mindset of a skilled MT driver to get the best of a PDK equipped 911, and that's only in manual mode. But in that case, it really is the next step, the best gearbox of this moment in time, that let's you have total control and involvement but withouth the inefficient hassle of declutching, rowing gears, loosing connection with your car. So IMO if you are only used to driving Auto slushboxes, and you move on to PDK and leave it in Auto, you are missing out, and yes, maybe in that case you should get a MT first to get into that MT mindset before you move on to a PDK. For me, I still think the PDK is way better than MT, and I still am convinced it is the right choice for me. But now I can see why someone would opt for a MT, because PDK in Auto just doesn't cut it ! Full enjoyment and efficiency can only be ad in PDK Manual mode, with a diehard/skilled MT driver at the wheel.
YMMV
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In conclusion, with of the above in mind, thinking about it on the drive home, I can understand why some of you MT diehards say the PDK sucks if they only tried it in Auto mode. Actually, I think it takes the mindset of a skilled MT driver to get the best of a PDK equipped 911, and that's only in manual mode. But in that case, it really is the next step, the best gearbox of this moment in time, that let's you have total control and involvement but withouth the inefficient hassle of declutching, rowing gears, loosing connection with your car. So IMO if you are only used to driving Auto slushboxes, and you move on to PDK and leave it in Auto, you are missing out, and yes, maybe in that case you should get a MT first to get into that MT mindset before you move on to a PDK. For me, I still think the PDK is way better than MT, and I still am convinced it is the right choice for me. But now I can see why someone would opt for a MT, because PDK in Auto just doesn't cut it ! Full enjoyment and efficiency can only be ad in PDK Manual mode, with a diehard/skilled MT driver at the wheel.
YMMV
ChuckJ
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How on earth can you PDK guys be content with just leaving it in auto all the time and never enjoy manual mode ?
[...]
I read on forums and from journos that it is telepathic in auto mode, that it shifts when you would shift yourself. NOT a chance ! [...] it is nowhere near as good as a driver that does the shifts himself in PDK manual mode !
[...]
PDK in auto mode sucked. Reaction time of shifting down was way to long. My proactive manual downshift allowed me to have accelerated past a car that had moved out of the way before the PDK Auto had figured out I was giving it more and more throttle
[...]
I read on forums and from journos that it is telepathic in auto mode, that it shifts when you would shift yourself. NOT a chance ! [...] it is nowhere near as good as a driver that does the shifts himself in PDK manual mode !
[...]
PDK in auto mode sucked. Reaction time of shifting down was way to long. My proactive manual downshift allowed me to have accelerated past a car that had moved out of the way before the PDK Auto had figured out I was giving it more and more throttle
I see only 3 cases where I prefer the PDK in Auto mode.
[...]
All three cases have absolutely nothing to do with driving and enjoying a Porsche like it was meant to.
[...]
All three cases have absolutely nothing to do with driving and enjoying a Porsche like it was meant to.
I think it takes the mindset of a skilled MT driver to get the best of a PDK equipped 911
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I'll tell you why I still love Manual transmissions:
You are on your favorite "hidden farm-road", you see the left hand 90-degree left immediately followed by the flowing right......you're coming from full-throttle at 5500 rpm in 3rd gear....turn is coming up fast, you are at 6200rpm and still pulling.....
Braking point.....Transition to braking, eyes on apex, toe on brake pedal......put weight on nose, side of foot slides over to throttle, zimmmm! Click!.....engage second gear with a perfect timed heal-toe, Releasing pressure on toe.......
transition to accel, achieve your exit path, transition to the flowing right hander....... You just made music.
Now, with the PDK.....
hard braking....press button......aim for apex......accel......let it shift for you on exit.....
Just as a side note....all of the cars that I race in SCCA series are manuals. But I would switch in a second to sequentials or manumatics. But on the idea of satisfying ME, I prefer to feel like I challenge my skills. It is way way harder to perfect a turn when factoring-in heal-toe gearchanges.
When you get it right, it is like that perfect swing of a bat, when you hit the ball, or the time you get all of that shot with your golf-swing. It feels GOOD! The last thing is that exhausts sound cooler with the gaps in shifting with the manuals.
My next race car is going to be an SCCA Enterprise FE, and I will be forced to go sequential. I'll probably change my mind and start loving Auto trannies better after that, who knows?
You are on your favorite "hidden farm-road", you see the left hand 90-degree left immediately followed by the flowing right......you're coming from full-throttle at 5500 rpm in 3rd gear....turn is coming up fast, you are at 6200rpm and still pulling.....
Braking point.....Transition to braking, eyes on apex, toe on brake pedal......put weight on nose, side of foot slides over to throttle, zimmmm! Click!.....engage second gear with a perfect timed heal-toe, Releasing pressure on toe.......
transition to accel, achieve your exit path, transition to the flowing right hander....... You just made music.
Now, with the PDK.....
hard braking....press button......aim for apex......accel......let it shift for you on exit.....
Just as a side note....all of the cars that I race in SCCA series are manuals. But I would switch in a second to sequentials or manumatics. But on the idea of satisfying ME, I prefer to feel like I challenge my skills. It is way way harder to perfect a turn when factoring-in heal-toe gearchanges.
When you get it right, it is like that perfect swing of a bat, when you hit the ball, or the time you get all of that shot with your golf-swing. It feels GOOD! The last thing is that exhausts sound cooler with the gaps in shifting with the manuals.
My next race car is going to be an SCCA Enterprise FE, and I will be forced to go sequential. I'll probably change my mind and start loving Auto trannies better after that, who knows?
Last edited by JohnM; Nov 25, 2013 at 07:28 AM.
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"You are on your favorite "hidden farm-road", you see the left hand 90-degree left immediately followed by the flowing right......you're coming from full-throttle at 5500 rpm in 3rd gear....turn is coming up fast, you are at 6200rpm and still pulling....."
.... and then you see a cop! Oh Crap....!
"Braking point.....Transition to braking, eyes on apex, toe on brake pedal......put weight on nose, side of foot slides over to throttle, zimmmm! Click!.....engage second gear with a perfect timed heal-toe, Releasing pressure on toe.......
transition to accel, achieve your exit path, transition to the flowing right hander....... You just made music."
You fumble around.... adrenalin pumping.... brain hasn't got time to think of excuse! Oh Crap!
"Now, with the PDK.....
hard braking....press button......aim for apex......accel......let it shift for you on exit....."
You brake hard... car comes to a quick but non screeching stop! Policeman is impressed. You're calm and have thought of excuse!
Life is good!
"Just as a side note....all of the cars that I race in SCCA series are manuals. But I would switch in a second to sequentials or manumatics. But on the idea of satisfying ME, I prefer to feel like I challenge my skills. It is way way harder to perfect a turn when factoring-in heal-toe gearchanges.
When you get it right, it is like that perfect swing of a bat, when you hit the ball, or the time you get all of that shot with your golf-swing. It feels GOOD! The last thing is that exhausts sound cooler with the gaps in shifting with the manuals.
My next race car is going to be an SCCA Enterprise FE, and I will be forced to go sequential. I'll probably change my mind and start loving Auto trannies better after that, who knows?"
Bah!....what do you know about driving on the streets anyway!
Just kidding!
The PDK debate has been bashed so much that most impressions (for and against) should really be taken with a pinch of salt.... and tequila!
.... and then you see a cop! Oh Crap....!
"Braking point.....Transition to braking, eyes on apex, toe on brake pedal......put weight on nose, side of foot slides over to throttle, zimmmm! Click!.....engage second gear with a perfect timed heal-toe, Releasing pressure on toe.......
transition to accel, achieve your exit path, transition to the flowing right hander....... You just made music."
You fumble around.... adrenalin pumping.... brain hasn't got time to think of excuse! Oh Crap!
"Now, with the PDK.....
hard braking....press button......aim for apex......accel......let it shift for you on exit....."
You brake hard... car comes to a quick but non screeching stop! Policeman is impressed. You're calm and have thought of excuse!
Life is good!
"Just as a side note....all of the cars that I race in SCCA series are manuals. But I would switch in a second to sequentials or manumatics. But on the idea of satisfying ME, I prefer to feel like I challenge my skills. It is way way harder to perfect a turn when factoring-in heal-toe gearchanges.
When you get it right, it is like that perfect swing of a bat, when you hit the ball, or the time you get all of that shot with your golf-swing. It feels GOOD! The last thing is that exhausts sound cooler with the gaps in shifting with the manuals.
My next race car is going to be an SCCA Enterprise FE, and I will be forced to go sequential. I'll probably change my mind and start loving Auto trannies better after that, who knows?"
Bah!....what do you know about driving on the streets anyway!
Just kidding!
The PDK debate has been bashed so much that most impressions (for and against) should really be taken with a pinch of salt.... and tequila!
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There are two reasons that the Elite sequential will keep you liking manuals:
1) The direct connection of the driveline is far better than any slushbox (torque converter)
2) The immediacy of a gearshift with a proper racing sequential is still faster than PDK (I'm not sure if the same is true for the PDK-S on a GT3, as I haven't driven one). Once you get used to the FE, the response of the PDK will feel sluggish in comparison.
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Posts: 541
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"You are on your favorite "hidden farm-road", you see the left hand 90-degree left immediately followed by the flowing right......you're coming from full-throttle at 5500 rpm in 3rd gear....turn is coming up fast, you are at 6200rpm and still pulling....."
.... and then you see a cop! Oh Crap....!
"Braking point.....Transition to braking, eyes on apex, toe on brake pedal......put weight on nose, side of foot slides over to throttle, zimmmm! Click!.....engage second gear with a perfect timed heal-toe, Releasing pressure on toe.......
transition to accel, achieve your exit path, transition to the flowing right hander....... You just made music."
You fumble around.... adrenalin pumping.... brain hasn't got time to think of excuse! Oh Crap!
"Now, with the PDK.....
hard braking....press button......aim for apex......accel......let it shift for you on exit....."
You brake hard... car comes to a quick but non screeching stop! Policeman is impressed. You're calm and have thought of excuse!
Life is good!
"Just as a side note....all of the cars that I race in SCCA series are manuals. But I would switch in a second to sequentials or manumatics. But on the idea of satisfying ME, I prefer to feel like I challenge my skills. It is way way harder to perfect a turn when factoring-in heal-toe gearchanges.
When you get it right, it is like that perfect swing of a bat, when you hit the ball, or the time you get all of that shot with your golf-swing. It feels GOOD! The last thing is that exhausts sound cooler with the gaps in shifting with the manuals.
My next race car is going to be an SCCA Enterprise FE, and I will be forced to go sequential. I'll probably change my mind and start loving Auto trannies better after that, who knows?"
Bah!....what do you know about driving on the streets anyway!
Just kidding!
The PDK debate has been bashed so much that most impressions (for and against) should really be taken with a pinch of salt.... and tequila!
.... and then you see a cop! Oh Crap....!
"Braking point.....Transition to braking, eyes on apex, toe on brake pedal......put weight on nose, side of foot slides over to throttle, zimmmm! Click!.....engage second gear with a perfect timed heal-toe, Releasing pressure on toe.......
transition to accel, achieve your exit path, transition to the flowing right hander....... You just made music."
You fumble around.... adrenalin pumping.... brain hasn't got time to think of excuse! Oh Crap!
"Now, with the PDK.....
hard braking....press button......aim for apex......accel......let it shift for you on exit....."
You brake hard... car comes to a quick but non screeching stop! Policeman is impressed. You're calm and have thought of excuse!
Life is good!
"Just as a side note....all of the cars that I race in SCCA series are manuals. But I would switch in a second to sequentials or manumatics. But on the idea of satisfying ME, I prefer to feel like I challenge my skills. It is way way harder to perfect a turn when factoring-in heal-toe gearchanges.
When you get it right, it is like that perfect swing of a bat, when you hit the ball, or the time you get all of that shot with your golf-swing. It feels GOOD! The last thing is that exhausts sound cooler with the gaps in shifting with the manuals.
My next race car is going to be an SCCA Enterprise FE, and I will be forced to go sequential. I'll probably change my mind and start loving Auto trannies better after that, who knows?"
Bah!....what do you know about driving on the streets anyway!
Just kidding!
The PDK debate has been bashed so much that most impressions (for and against) should really be taken with a pinch of salt.... and tequila!
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 541
From: NJ
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No, the FE sequential won't make you fall in love with Auto transmissions. The Elite 5-speed is not that different from a standard Hewland H-pattern box - once you learn to rev-match, you probably won't use the clutch once you leave pit lane (I know that I don't).
There are two reasons that the Elite sequential will keep you liking manuals:
1) The direct connection of the driveline is far better than any slushbox (torque converter)
2) The immediacy of a gearshift with a proper racing sequential is still faster than PDK (I'm not sure if the same is true for the PDK-S on a GT3, as I haven't driven one). Once you get used to the FE, the response of the PDK will feel sluggish in comparison.
There are two reasons that the Elite sequential will keep you liking manuals:
1) The direct connection of the driveline is far better than any slushbox (torque converter)
2) The immediacy of a gearshift with a proper racing sequential is still faster than PDK (I'm not sure if the same is true for the PDK-S on a GT3, as I haven't driven one). Once you get used to the FE, the response of the PDK will feel sluggish in comparison.
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[The one serious maintenance issue to watch is the pinion nut at the front of the gearing section (engine end). If it backs out, it pushes the pinion shaft gears back; if it goes far enough, the pairs misalign and will strip all the teeth off and give you a fistful of expensive crunching noises. Get the special wrench, and check/tighten to torque spec every other weekend.]
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Thanks!
It's hard to get info on the FE chassis. The guys at the track are few and far between. And if you talk to the territory rep, they'll still be telling you that you get 20 heat cycles on a set of tires!!! LOL!
I'll have to PM you when the season starts and if I make the switch!
It's hard to get info on the FE chassis. The guys at the track are few and far between. And if you talk to the territory rep, they'll still be telling you that you get 20 heat cycles on a set of tires!!! LOL!
I'll have to PM you when the season starts and if I make the switch!
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I drive a 3.4 991 with a manual and my girlfriend has a 991 S PDK. I get to drive both back to back every week and I enjoy both. If I am going on an errand or just want to transport myself somewhere I prefer the PDK. If I want true driving pleasure there is simply no substitute for the manual. There is just no comparing the two in my opinion.
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I drive a 3.4 991 with a manual and my girlfriend has a 991 S PDK. I get to drive both back to back every week and I enjoy both. If I am going on an errand or just want to transport myself somewhere I prefer the PDK. If I want true driving pleasure there is simply no substitute for the manual. There is just no comparing the two in my opinion.
) life doesn't get better my friend!