Haven’t heard anything in a long time regarding several BIG HP cars . . .
I spoke today to someone that actually tried running a Motec on a 996TT...
He said it got very upset with the cam advance and lift stuff. If you're racing and removing all that cam stuff, it will work great. With that said, I believe that Loren at 911 design uses gt3 heads and cams... which allows him to get around the 996tt's problem....
Markski
ps. I still believe it will be a while before we see a standalone- not a piggyback system...running a P car with all the functions and no CEL lights.
He said it got very upset with the cam advance and lift stuff. If you're racing and removing all that cam stuff, it will work great. With that said, I believe that Loren at 911 design uses gt3 heads and cams... which allows him to get around the 996tt's problem....
Markski
ps. I still believe it will be a while before we see a standalone- not a piggyback system...running a P car with all the functions and no CEL lights.
__________________
2001 996TT 3.6L and stock ECU
9.66 seconds @ 147.76 mph 1/4 mile click to view
160 mph @ 9.77 seconds in 1/4 mile click to view
50% OFF ON PORSCHE ECU TUNING BLACK FRIDAY SPECIAL
2001 996TT 3.6L and stock ECU
9.66 seconds @ 147.76 mph 1/4 mile click to view
160 mph @ 9.77 seconds in 1/4 mile click to view
50% OFF ON PORSCHE ECU TUNING BLACK FRIDAY SPECIAL
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Joined: Apr 2005
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From: The Woodlands, TX
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While we have the attention of some knowledgable folks, I want to share something I just found out. Do you folks know that a stock 997TT will run AFRs up to 17:1 and even 18:1? Obviously Porsche knows something that most of us do not.
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 531
From: En La Boca Del Raton
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Jean,
Most modern standalones (such as the one installed in my 993), read the outputs directly from stock knock sensors the same way the OEM ecu does. Keeping the OEM knock sensor (as opposed to some aftermarket add on) is a good idea because they are typically selected to respond in the most useful frequency regions for that particular engine.
What is different is of course the program logic to determine what is real knock, and what actions are taken once actual knock is seen. The amount of noise “filtering”, the rate and max amount of timing pulled/fuel added, along with the rate at which timing and fuel are restored to base values, is all programmable and operates in a real time feedback loop. As you guessed, setting these values is left up to the tuner. This is why having an experienced tuner is key to keeping things reliable with a standalone (or any setup for that matter). I have attached a screen shot as an example to show some of the typical user inputs.
While no aftermarket shop has the factory money backing that Bosch does, tuning correct knock thresholds is not exactly something new, so it's not the black art it may appear to be. Most standalones also have a fairly complex method to monitor knock voltages. To determine what are real knock events, the input channel is integrated according to the crankshaft tooth count values so that only events occurring in a particular window near top dead center are considered, minimizing false positives from other things such as valve train noise. Of course you can also log/view raw values to see all knock sensor inputs, but obviously a particular cylinder is not going to knock when it’s on it’s exhaust stroke or at bottom dead center, so those areas are typically ignored.
Also keep in mind, that with increased horsepower, normal engine combustion noise (non-knock related) is increased as well across the board. So while the factory knock noise filtering curves may be perfect for a stock car, they will be less then perfect for a car making say twice the factory hp levels. Without having the knock cals "retuned", you can run into a situation where knock feedback control pulls timing and adds fuel unnecessarily.
Anyway, I think that it’s very impressive how far the 996TT’s can go with a reflashed stock ecu and still be reliable. I just wanted to provide some general info about the knock feedback capabilities of most modern aftermarket standalones, because they really work very well in the right hands. I think what Switzer and others are doing is great, I look forward to seeing the results.
Most modern standalones (such as the one installed in my 993), read the outputs directly from stock knock sensors the same way the OEM ecu does. Keeping the OEM knock sensor (as opposed to some aftermarket add on) is a good idea because they are typically selected to respond in the most useful frequency regions for that particular engine.
What is different is of course the program logic to determine what is real knock, and what actions are taken once actual knock is seen. The amount of noise “filtering”, the rate and max amount of timing pulled/fuel added, along with the rate at which timing and fuel are restored to base values, is all programmable and operates in a real time feedback loop. As you guessed, setting these values is left up to the tuner. This is why having an experienced tuner is key to keeping things reliable with a standalone (or any setup for that matter). I have attached a screen shot as an example to show some of the typical user inputs.
While no aftermarket shop has the factory money backing that Bosch does, tuning correct knock thresholds is not exactly something new, so it's not the black art it may appear to be. Most standalones also have a fairly complex method to monitor knock voltages. To determine what are real knock events, the input channel is integrated according to the crankshaft tooth count values so that only events occurring in a particular window near top dead center are considered, minimizing false positives from other things such as valve train noise. Of course you can also log/view raw values to see all knock sensor inputs, but obviously a particular cylinder is not going to knock when it’s on it’s exhaust stroke or at bottom dead center, so those areas are typically ignored.
Also keep in mind, that with increased horsepower, normal engine combustion noise (non-knock related) is increased as well across the board. So while the factory knock noise filtering curves may be perfect for a stock car, they will be less then perfect for a car making say twice the factory hp levels. Without having the knock cals "retuned", you can run into a situation where knock feedback control pulls timing and adds fuel unnecessarily.
Anyway, I think that it’s very impressive how far the 996TT’s can go with a reflashed stock ecu and still be reliable. I just wanted to provide some general info about the knock feedback capabilities of most modern aftermarket standalones, because they really work very well in the right hands. I think what Switzer and others are doing is great, I look forward to seeing the results.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,597
From: Texas
Rep Power: 205
In my bief assumption, there seems to be a few 3.8 litre turbos running. I am challenging Alex, Jagg, Peter, Bradywine as well as Ruf to bring there goods! This forum has been on fire about this power mixing maddnes, hence everyone with a unique build should be in houston in a couple of weeks! So come on guys... bring what you have!
Best of Luck
Robert
Best of Luck
Robert
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 166
From: Ohio
Rep Power: 26
I dont think he's calling them out... I think he want everyone to show off what they have been bragging about... including himself LOL heck he and I talked and he may have a faster car then I but he didn't "call me out".. just asked and invited me to even stay at his crib...
__________________
2001 996TT 3.6L and stock ECU
9.66 seconds @ 147.76 mph 1/4 mile click to view
160 mph @ 9.77 seconds in 1/4 mile click to view
50% OFF ON PORSCHE ECU TUNING BLACK FRIDAY SPECIAL
2001 996TT 3.6L and stock ECU
9.66 seconds @ 147.76 mph 1/4 mile click to view
160 mph @ 9.77 seconds in 1/4 mile click to view
50% OFF ON PORSCHE ECU TUNING BLACK FRIDAY SPECIAL
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,597
From: Texas
Rep Power: 205
Hi
Sorry if it seems that I am calling anyone out, that is not my intention at all. I really am intersted in seeing what is out there! I have been talking to some Ruf guys and I am hoping that a R12 will show up??? Secondly, I think if people see what can be done to Porsche, they WILL BE amazed and hence the envelop will be pushed even father which will help us all! Lastly, if you never been to the Supra Nats then you are missing a great collection of speed and cars! I hope this clears the air!
Cheers
Robert
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,597
From: Texas
Rep Power: 205
Jimmer
She is running great and I am slowly breaking the motor in as instructed. I have been up to 14 pounds and going for more. The car was actually at Tommy B place this weekend, as you are aware Tommy holds the record for the Texas Mile and he is very interested in Porsche. I think he will be another person pushing the envelop in our Porsche community! So what ever he can learn from my car to make our cars faster is alright with me!
Cheers
Robert
She is running great and I am slowly breaking the motor in as instructed. I have been up to 14 pounds and going for more. The car was actually at Tommy B place this weekend, as you are aware Tommy holds the record for the Texas Mile and he is very interested in Porsche. I think he will be another person pushing the envelop in our Porsche community! So what ever he can learn from my car to make our cars faster is alright with me!
Cheers
Robert
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,597
From: Texas
Rep Power: 205
wow a ton of stuff
i had the block redrilled for greater strength
replaced everthing that could be replaced
new heads with GT3 style cams
new pistons 3.8 liter
new rods
new fuel system
larger turbos with lighter turbines (GT35)
different exhaust with bipass
Proto intakes
Proto ECU
hmmmm these are some of the bigger items for the motor
the clutch is a triple ATS
You can see it in person or even drive it if you like.....
Cheers
Robert
i had the block redrilled for greater strength
replaced everthing that could be replaced
new heads with GT3 style cams
new pistons 3.8 liter
new rods
new fuel system
larger turbos with lighter turbines (GT35)
different exhaust with bipass
Proto intakes
Proto ECU
hmmmm these are some of the bigger items for the motor
the clutch is a triple ATS
You can see it in person or even drive it if you like.....
Cheers
Robert
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,771
From: Seattle WA
Rep Power: 225
wow a ton of stuff
i had the block redrilled for greater strength
replaced everthing that could be replaced
new heads with GT3 style cams
new pistons 3.8 liter
new rods
new fuel system
larger turbos with lighter turbines (GT35)
different exhaust with bipass
Proto intakes
Proto ECU
hmmmm these are some of the bigger items for the motor
the clutch is a triple ATS
You can see it in person or even drive it if you like.....
Cheers
Robert
i had the block redrilled for greater strength
replaced everthing that could be replaced
new heads with GT3 style cams
new pistons 3.8 liter
new rods
new fuel system
larger turbos with lighter turbines (GT35)
different exhaust with bipass
Proto intakes
Proto ECU
hmmmm these are some of the bigger items for the motor
the clutch is a triple ATS
You can see it in person or even drive it if you like.....
Cheers
Robert
thanks for the invite. But getting that much time off work is really difficult and not likely to happen.
BTW - what are the specs on your turbos. I was talking with Todd today and trying to decide between gt3076r's with .82 ar or gt30r's with .63 ar. I dont like the idea of running the gt35r's with .82ar when full boost is as late as 4200rpms.
Jag