Jamie,
you are getting technical but refuse to admit that the stock ecu is in there
and one is splices into another. PERIOD.

Yes you guys bash the stock ecu every time a new development comes up.. you even did it again. How do you know the stock ECU will not provide the flexibility nor the control? I have not seen anything yet that the SPI ecu does that is better or more flexible... I only see that its doing what its doing.
How ironic, let's make the stock ecu act like a vegetable so we can use our own ecu to do its thing...
Now Ill get technical, and this is from Todd's mouth(dyno figures that is)
Todd put done 700 rwhp at 18 psi. You guys put down 800 at 22 psi. According to Todd 1 psi is good for 25 rwhp... so 4x25 is 100. add 700 to 100 and that is 800 rwhp. Unfortunately Todd did not want to take any more risk with the motor... heck, he has been called mad as is for taking it to 700 rwhp.
With that said, It seems that Todd doing exactly the same thing on a stupid outdated motronic ECU.
I can even go further on the 2 tuning approaches...... the actual timing tables and afrs between the SPI and Motronic are almost the same... you dont believe me... you know who to call .... they both know.

The "camp" I referred to was is good faith... nothing sinister about it...

mark

 

Mark,

Actually I'm not getting technical because I'm not able. And rather than be spoon fed behind the scenes, I have simply posted my opinions based upon multiple builds I have been fortunate enough to own over the years and the knowledge I have gained from the respective tuners. My recent posts about SPI have started only by my sheer excitement over what I think is the biggest development in the Porsche aftermarket to date. So this has never been a Proto vs. SPI issue. Tym and Todd work really well together...hell, I introduced them to each other since they are two of the best tuners (and human beings) I know in the business! Well besides Justin Nenni of course. And so that I am crystal clear: I think Todd is one of the best in the entire business and I constantly refer potential customers to him. I have spent much more time (and money) with Todd than Tym and I will continue supporting Todd any way I can. So again, there is no need to try and create drama between Todd and Tym since there isn't any.

But your post pissed me off Mark. As for your piggyback argument, you really need to either understand what a piggyback is or ask Todd what Tim has done. He is not taking signals from the sensors and distorting them to trick the ECU into reading a different value. Yes, there are two ECU's still in the car. But Tym has shut down the Motronic in most areas so that it can't even read the signals. And the only reason the Motronic is still even in the car is so that he could get the car running quickly and start phase two (and the really cool things that will be unveiled pretty soon). And fyi, he is probably planning on removing the Motronic completely once he had finished all the different stages of tuning and options for both platforms.

As for bashing the Motronic....hardly. I simply stated a fact that the SPI standalone can do some really cool things that allows the user much more flexibility and control over the car. Tym stated these things somewhere before, but things like fuel/timing independent of the factory tables, boost control by gear and speed, instant pump/race maps without touching a button (or forgetting to switch the boost controller), antilag/launch control (wait until he unveils this feature....), tons more engine monitoring when you need it, real time super fast data logging and tuning adjustments, etc. Unless I'm missing something, the Motronic can't do any of these.

And as for which ECU produces more power...well it comes down to tuning philosophy. Todd has mastered working the stock tables while relying on the awesome Bosch knock sensors. He is able to run higher A/F and make great, efficient power. Actually Tym runs A/F's a minimum of a point lower so theoretically he shouldn't make as much power at any given boost level. (you know who to call on this one too). Todd's dynopack also reads about 10% higher than Tym's 224 dynojet (based off my old car at same boost settings) while showing much higher torque readings for some reason (the hp curves literally just about lay over each other). So does this mean that SPI's 997 really makes 880 hp on Todd's dynopack on 3076's instead of similar numbers on 35's with headwork, cams, etc? And since you started to split hairs over boost settings on Kevin's car, Kevin's Proto graph actually states 19 psi, not 18.

The point being Mark is that we could go on and on about why a dyno number is higher, whose tuning philosophy is better, who treats their kids better, etc. So for someone who has over the past couple years (since I've been on the board) complained about the Supra's ability to run higher boost with their iron blocks and Motecs, we finally are starting to break through with a tuning development that will net the Porsche community better track times with more tuning options! In the end, both Todd's customers and Tym's customers will be really happy with their cars. And that is all that matters.

So embrace it buddy!!!

Jamie

 

it is important to remember that alot of what is being done is based upon my request. i told tym what my goals were in terms of power and features with the car. in a relatively short time period, he has already exceeded the power goals. we are now trying to implement some additional features which i think would be really cool to have in a daily driver. tym is only doing what i requested and will continue to do what any of his customers request. ultimately, a tuner can only be judged by the customer for which he does the work for. there are many things still under development that have not been disclosed yet. but the bottom line is, the entire porsche community will benefit from people like tym. finally, i would like to personally thank Todd at Protomotive for his contributions to this project! Both of you guys are truly a blessing to this community!

 

Irrelevant of all junk that the we keep arguing about- I agree with you 100%...
I never questioned the accomplishments... just the method used.
I think its Ok to disagree... and I even think that considering how important this is to the P car community I will agree that the ecu is a stand alone... even if there are two for now and even that it does not fit my definitition of a stand alone.
In my opinion, for whatever its worth, Todd has done really well with Motronic. Furthermore, the mere fact that he is involved on this indirectly only proves that one needs the other... for the time being lets say.... On the other hand Tym is onto something and if it becomes a marketable package more power to all parties involved... so far its doing great...
With that said, I don't think there is that much difference of opinion between us...
sincerely,
Mark

 

Hey Guys,

I figured I'd chime in here......

I believe its my 700 awhp Protomotive White 997 TT that is being compared to Switzer's 800 rwhp 997TT.

First off, I wanted to point out that both of these 997TTs really shouldnt be compared at all.

My Protomotive 997TT is running:

GT3071R Turbos
Factory air box
Factory plenum
Factory upper air hoses (Factory Y Pipe) between intercoolers and thottle body.
Has Larger Intercoolers & Larger piping between intercoolers and turbos.
Custom Exhaust
External Wastegates
Stock Injectors
Stock Headers
Ran ALL WHEEL DRIVE (all wheel drive was connected) during passes on the dyno.
Ran Passes on a Dynapak
Used 103 Octane Race Fuel
Custom Protomotive reprogrammed Stock ECU
Upgraded Clutch
At peak power hit 700.9 awhp @ 6300 RPM. At this peak HP reading the car was making 18.2 psi - although the car hit 18.99 psi at 4300 RPMs during the same run. The car ranged from 18.2 - 18.99 PSI throughout that pass. Also temp at Todds shop that day was 93 F. But oddly enough on a cooler day the car made only 698.xx (go figure)

-------------------------------------------

Switzer's 997TT is using:

GT3076R Turbos
Custom Intake System
Factory plenum or modded IPD Plenum (Im not sure)
Has custom Y Pipe/upper air hoses coming off the intercoolers connecting to throttle body
Has Larger Intercoolers & Larger piping between intercoolers and turbos.
Custom Exhaust
External Wastegates
1000 CC Injector/s or Similar Fuel Mod I believe
Custom Headers
Ran Rear Wheel Drive Passes on the Dyno (AWD Disconnected)
Ran Passes on a DynoJet
Used C16 Race Fuel
Swtizer's Standalone Unit (Car running without MAF I believe)
Upgraded Clutch
Made 804 rwhp at around 1.5 bar
(Pardon me if I made any mistakes or left anything out above)

As you can see, both 997TT cars are running different size turbos, different air intake plumbing, different air systems, different fuel components, different headers, different Y-Pipes, different boost pressures & completely different tuning methods. They were also NOT using the same race fuels and one was dynod with AWD connected - the other with AWD disconnected. Cars were dynod in different states and in different conditions. One was dynod on a dynapak the other was on a dynojet (Although my research has shown that both of these dynos normally read pretty close to each other, there are people that claim there are indeed differences between the two).

Comeon guys! These cars are WAY too different to compare and there are simply WAY too many different variables involved.

Bottom line as I see it. Protomotive and Switzer are both AMAZING tuners and I am certain the entire community will be seeing a whole lot more out of these 997TTs in due time. Im sure sooner than later! ; )

Keith

 

Amen!!!!!

 

Group hug?

 

deff a group hug is needed

 

Keith,

Great info, however if Todd ran your car as AWD, that would be a different process
than he normally does. He ran my car RWD (unhooked my front diff) so as to "loosely
compare to all the other cars that he does.

MK

 

Group Hug, I just want to subscribe to this thread so in 6 months when half the "big dawgs" have this ECU in their cars I can remember what it took to get there. My only regret is having 3K into a reflash, when I imagine for 1-2K more I could have the same flash but the ability to have my tuner tweak things a bit and add additional features that I came to love in my Supra.

 

I need to make more money.............

 

I think the only way to solve this problem is to take both cars up pikes peak at full power and the one that makes it up there first wins. But I agree with Markski, cars much too different to be compared at all.

 

Correction

Above 997TT (KeithA) was run in AWD on Protos DynaPack.
I stand corrected!

MK

 

What is the conversion factor for awhp to rwhp........ approximately

 

AWD uses app. 5% more power than RWD. We use 12.5% for loss on RWD and 18.5% for loss on AWD.