How Do We Beat The New Big Dogs? (zr-1, Acr, Gt2)
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All I know is...Im where the speed is...and while porsche has a TON of it...If Dodge is able to put out a car that reliably beats even some of porches built race cars that doesnt need rebuilds every 60 hrs...sign me up...
The only problem for me is I cant play with alot of the porsche groups...go figure!
The only problem for me is I cant play with alot of the porsche groups...go figure!
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I think a 911 needs to go into a different direction. There was not enough change between 996 and 997, especially from a performance aspects. When other car manufacturers were dramatically increasing their cars power, Porsche only increased it slightly, thus, it fell behind. They could get away with it with 997, but 998 needs to be on a whole other level... they can't just make the new 911 have 370hp and turbo have 530hp (same increase as 996-997).
What they should do first and foremost is to switch to a Gallardo/R8 mid-engined platform. This will allow them to use V8 engines and have the mid-engined balance (R8 is already said to be a better driver's car than 911, it won every handling comparison). Because of Porsche's partnership with VW Group (cayenne/toureg/Q7 all same platform), it is very possible. For the base 911, they could use a 440hp+ N/A V8, and for 911 turbo, they could add twin-turbo's for 600hp+. Then for GT2, they could do a V10 or V12 with 700hp+, which is only possible from a mid-engined layout. This way, they would capture the performance crown once again! 911 does not need to be 2+2, they could fill in the gap for 2+2 with a panamera coupe (it would also have far more rear-seat room, 911's rear seats are barely usable for adults). This move will also allow them to use the existing 360hp 3.8L engines for cayman/boxster, which also desperately need a power increase. C'mon Porsche... 911 needs to be a benchmark sports car, not a freakin GT!
So basically, here is what I think the 998 lineup should look like:
Base 911: N/A V8 430hp+
911 Turbo: Twin-turbo V8 600hp+
911 GT2: N/A V10 or V12 700hp+
Next Porsche Supercar: Twin-turbo V10 or V12 900hp+
What they should do first and foremost is to switch to a Gallardo/R8 mid-engined platform. This will allow them to use V8 engines and have the mid-engined balance (R8 is already said to be a better driver's car than 911, it won every handling comparison). Because of Porsche's partnership with VW Group (cayenne/toureg/Q7 all same platform), it is very possible. For the base 911, they could use a 440hp+ N/A V8, and for 911 turbo, they could add twin-turbo's for 600hp+. Then for GT2, they could do a V10 or V12 with 700hp+, which is only possible from a mid-engined layout. This way, they would capture the performance crown once again! 911 does not need to be 2+2, they could fill in the gap for 2+2 with a panamera coupe (it would also have far more rear-seat room, 911's rear seats are barely usable for adults). This move will also allow them to use the existing 360hp 3.8L engines for cayman/boxster, which also desperately need a power increase. C'mon Porsche... 911 needs to be a benchmark sports car, not a freakin GT!
So basically, here is what I think the 998 lineup should look like:
Base 911: N/A V8 430hp+
911 Turbo: Twin-turbo V8 600hp+
911 GT2: N/A V10 or V12 700hp+
Next Porsche Supercar: Twin-turbo V10 or V12 900hp+
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...998+gt2&page=4
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Why is it that the GT3 with what is these days a paltry hp number of 415 is one of the most respected track cars to date? And still one of the fastest. I would go for a 500 hp GT3, 530 hp Turbo and 590 hp GT2 is all Porsche needs to be the fastest of anything.
All this 700,800,900 hp is not what Porsche is about. May be what this section of 6speed is primarily about, but not the factory and that will never happen.
Dez, It's the same reason I'm working on that "other" project car... power to weight and PMI. The GT3 is an increadibly well balanced race car, even for the street. It's the same reason guys like Jim M. can take a stock-ish 996GT3 street car, throw some slicks and Motons on it and go run 1:18s at Summit Point and 2:04s at VIR, with only 382WHP.
You're correct in the fact that big HP numbers relate more and more to the hotrodder mentality. But when these numbers keep showing up on track day toys, it's time to pay attention.
Maybe Porsche doesn't care, because they know those who have the means to modify these cars will do so and still wave the flag for Ferdinand!
Mike
You're correct in the fact that big HP numbers relate more and more to the hotrodder mentality. But when these numbers keep showing up on track day toys, it's time to pay attention.
Maybe Porsche doesn't care, because they know those who have the means to modify these cars will do so and still wave the flag for Ferdinand!
Mike
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Dez, It's the same reason I'm working on that "other" project car... power to weight and PMI. The GT3 is an increadibly well balanced race car, even for the street. It's the same reason guys like Jim M. can take a stock-ish 996GT3 street car, throw some slicks and Motons on it and go run 1:18s at Summit Point and 2:04s at VIR, with only 382WHP.
You're correct in the fact that big HP numbers relate more and more to the hotrodder mentality. But when these numbers keep showing up on track day toys, it's time to pay attention.
Maybe Porsche doesn't care, because they know those who have the means to modify these cars will do so and still wave the flag for Ferdinand!
Mike
You're correct in the fact that big HP numbers relate more and more to the hotrodder mentality. But when these numbers keep showing up on track day toys, it's time to pay attention.
Maybe Porsche doesn't care, because they know those who have the means to modify these cars will do so and still wave the flag for Ferdinand!
Mike
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gents, take a gander at the one lap results. (on sat) 996 tt 1st, hennesy viper 2nd, where oh where is the gtr? can't give live updates as i'm in granada.
personaly all of these cars are most fine and add spice to the overall scene. eg i've a ruf rturbo which gets 21mpg at 80mph. its comfortable, has ac and is fun to drive.
personaly all of these cars are most fine and add spice to the overall scene. eg i've a ruf rturbo which gets 21mpg at 80mph. its comfortable, has ac and is fun to drive.
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Dez, It's the same reason I'm working on that "other" project car... power to weight and PMI. The GT3 is an increadibly well balanced race car, even for the street. It's the same reason guys like Jim M. can take a stock-ish 996GT3 street car, throw some slicks and Motons on it and go run 1:18s at Summit Point and 2:04s at VIR, with only 382WHP.
You're correct in the fact that big HP numbers relate more and more to the hotrodder mentality. But when these numbers keep showing up on track day toys, it's time to pay attention.
Maybe Porsche doesn't care, because they know those who have the means to modify these cars will do so and still wave the flag for Ferdinand!
Mike
You're correct in the fact that big HP numbers relate more and more to the hotrodder mentality. But when these numbers keep showing up on track day toys, it's time to pay attention.
Maybe Porsche doesn't care, because they know those who have the means to modify these cars will do so and still wave the flag for Ferdinand!
Mike
Now I'm sure Porsche wont like being trampled at the track, so something will come from it, but it wont be these mega hp machines with people drag racing the straights and babying the corners.
I beleive hennessey created something called drag-o-cross. Well that's what the tracks are going to turn into if everyone can only add power to make the cars faster. Porsche improved the straight line ability of the GT3 from the 996 GT3 very little, but improved the performance a lot. They did it with refinement and developement.
They could take the 997 GT3 to an HONEST 3075 lbs, add 20 hp and it would be something serious. I'd buy that in a hearbeat and start hunting all the high hp cars (yes like the one I have). The weight gain is what turned me off about the 997 GT3. If they had kept the same weight it would be even that much faster.
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I do understand a little of your reasoning, but this is a recipe for american muscle drag racers not Porsche. When you start putting all that power into 911's people will have less and less ability to drive them. They will be more about muscle and less about refinement.
Why is it that the GT3 with what is these days a paltry hp number of 415 is one of the most respected track cars to date? And still one of the fastest. I would go for a 500 hp GT3, 530 hp Turbo and 590 hp GT2 is all Porsche needs to be the fastest of anything.
All this 700,800,900 hp is not what Porsche is about. May be what this section of 6speed is primarily about, but not the factory and that will never happen.
Why is it that the GT3 with what is these days a paltry hp number of 415 is one of the most respected track cars to date? And still one of the fastest. I would go for a 500 hp GT3, 530 hp Turbo and 590 hp GT2 is all Porsche needs to be the fastest of anything.
All this 700,800,900 hp is not what Porsche is about. May be what this section of 6speed is primarily about, but not the factory and that will never happen.
I do understand a little of your reasoning, but this is a recipe for american muscle drag racers not Porsche. When you start putting all that power into 911's people will have less and less ability to drive them. They will be more about muscle and less about refinement.
Why is it that the GT3 with what is these days a paltry hp number of 415 is one of the most respected track cars to date? And still one of the fastest. I would go for a 500 hp GT3, 530 hp Turbo and 590 hp GT2 is all Porsche needs to be the fastest of anything.
All this 700,800,900 hp is not what Porsche is about. May be what this section of 6speed is primarily about, but not the factory and that will never happen.
Why is it that the GT3 with what is these days a paltry hp number of 415 is one of the most respected track cars to date? And still one of the fastest. I would go for a 500 hp GT3, 530 hp Turbo and 590 hp GT2 is all Porsche needs to be the fastest of anything.
All this 700,800,900 hp is not what Porsche is about. May be what this section of 6speed is primarily about, but not the factory and that will never happen.
Have you driven a 996 GT3? The only "aids" involved are ABS. There's no PASM or PSM. I think the 996GT3 is probably one of the most difficult cars to drive at the limits (second behind the GT2) and one that shouldn't be assumed to be easy to drive fast.
I agree with most of the rest of the statement below... The Porsche has a steep history in race technology that transfers directly into the production line. But as others have found, the new technology found on these "supercars" you're wanting to beat is closing the gap in the handling and braking departments, and they already have us in the power department (well some of "us").
We'll all benefit from this competition, and these are certainly great times to be a car guy!
Mike
I agree with most of the rest of the statement below... The Porsche has a steep history in race technology that transfers directly into the production line. But as others have found, the new technology found on these "supercars" you're wanting to beat is closing the gap in the handling and braking departments, and they already have us in the power department (well some of "us").
We'll all benefit from this competition, and these are certainly great times to be a car guy!
Mike
I'd bet Porsche doesnt care, they are seperating guys that can drive fast laps from guys that can buy fast laps with the GT3. Who cant go fast in a 600,700 hp car? Taking a 415 hp car and going that fast emphasizes the driver and cornering abilities of the car, and not the foot to the floor and cubic inches of the car.
Now I'm sure Porsche wont like being trampled at the track, so something will come from it, but it wont be these mega hp machines with people drag racing the straights and babying the corners.
I beleive hennessey created something called drag-o-cross. Well that's what the tracks are going to turn into if everyone can only add power to make the cars faster. Porsche improved the straight line ability of the GT3 from the 996 GT3 very little, but improved the performance a lot. They did it with refinement and developement.
They could take the 997 GT3 to an HONEST 3075 lbs, add 20 hp and it would be something serious. I'd buy that in a hearbeat and start hunting all the high hp cars (yes like the one I have). The weight gain is what turned me off about the 997 GT3. If they had kept the same weight it would be even that much faster.
Now I'm sure Porsche wont like being trampled at the track, so something will come from it, but it wont be these mega hp machines with people drag racing the straights and babying the corners.
I beleive hennessey created something called drag-o-cross. Well that's what the tracks are going to turn into if everyone can only add power to make the cars faster. Porsche improved the straight line ability of the GT3 from the 996 GT3 very little, but improved the performance a lot. They did it with refinement and developement.
They could take the 997 GT3 to an HONEST 3075 lbs, add 20 hp and it would be something serious. I'd buy that in a hearbeat and start hunting all the high hp cars (yes like the one I have). The weight gain is what turned me off about the 997 GT3. If they had kept the same weight it would be even that much faster.
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Kinda like ole girl, you dont want one that will give you everthing easily and show you all her potential, you want one that makes you work for it, at least I do. The ones that give it up easy get boring real fast.
THIS is the qoute of the THREAD!!!
Mike
Mike
Exactly why it's such a great car, because it only rewards you if you know what you're doing.
Kinda like ole girl, you dont want one that will give you everthing easily and show you all her potential, you want one that makes you work for it, at least I do. The ones that give it up easy get boring real fast.
Kinda like ole girl, you dont want one that will give you everthing easily and show you all her potential, you want one that makes you work for it, at least I do. The ones that give it up easy get boring real fast.
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I think a 911 needs to go into a different direction. There was not enough change between 996 and 997, especially from a performance aspects. When other car manufacturers were dramatically increasing their cars power, Porsche only increased it slightly, thus, it fell behind. They could get away with it with 997, but 998 needs to be on a whole other level... they can't just make the new 911 have 370hp and turbo have 530hp (same increase as 996-997).
What they should do first and foremost is to switch to a Gallardo/R8 mid-engined platform. This will allow them to use V8 engines and have the mid-engined balance (R8 is already said to be a better driver's car than 911, it won every handling comparison). Because of Porsche's partnership with VW Group (cayenne/toureg/Q7 all same platform), it is very possible. For the base 911, they could use a 440hp+ N/A V8, and for 911 turbo, they could add twin-turbo's for 600hp+. Then for GT2, they could do a V10 or V12 with 700hp+, which is only possible from a mid-engined layout. This way, they would capture the performance crown once again! 911 does not need to be 2+2, they could fill in the gap for 2+2 with a panamera coupe (it would also have far more rear-seat room, 911's rear seats are barely usable for adults). This move will also allow them to use the existing 360hp 3.8L engines for cayman/boxster, which also desperately need a power increase. C'mon Porsche... 911 needs to be a benchmark sports car, not a freakin GT!
So basically, here is what I think the 998 lineup should look like:
Base 911: N/A V8 430hp+
911 Turbo: Twin-turbo V8 600hp+
911 GT2: N/A V10 or V12 700hp+
Next Porsche Supercar: Twin-turbo V10 or V12 900hp+
What they should do first and foremost is to switch to a Gallardo/R8 mid-engined platform. This will allow them to use V8 engines and have the mid-engined balance (R8 is already said to be a better driver's car than 911, it won every handling comparison). Because of Porsche's partnership with VW Group (cayenne/toureg/Q7 all same platform), it is very possible. For the base 911, they could use a 440hp+ N/A V8, and for 911 turbo, they could add twin-turbo's for 600hp+. Then for GT2, they could do a V10 or V12 with 700hp+, which is only possible from a mid-engined layout. This way, they would capture the performance crown once again! 911 does not need to be 2+2, they could fill in the gap for 2+2 with a panamera coupe (it would also have far more rear-seat room, 911's rear seats are barely usable for adults). This move will also allow them to use the existing 360hp 3.8L engines for cayman/boxster, which also desperately need a power increase. C'mon Porsche... 911 needs to be a benchmark sports car, not a freakin GT!
So basically, here is what I think the 998 lineup should look like:
Base 911: N/A V8 430hp+
911 Turbo: Twin-turbo V8 600hp+
911 GT2: N/A V10 or V12 700hp+
Next Porsche Supercar: Twin-turbo V10 or V12 900hp+
Model Displacement HP RPM
Boxster 2.7 = 280hp, redline 7000
Boxster S 3.2 = 315hp, redline 7250
Cayman 3.4 = 320hp, redline 7250
Cayman S 3.6 = 360hp, redline 7500
Cayman Clubsport (CS/RS?) 3.8 = 415hp, redline 8200
Carrera 3.6 = 360hp, redline 7500
Carrera S 3.8 = 415hp, redline 8200
911 GT3/RS = 480hp, redline 8600 (RS receiving much better handling and suspension componentry)
911 TT 4.2 = 560hp, redline 7500
911 GT2 4.2 = 620hp, redline 8000
Upcoming GT1 6.0 V10 = 750hp, redline 8500
GT1 RS 6.0 V10 TT = 1050hp, Redline 8000 (I'd like to see them break the 1000hp barrier that the Veyron established as the halmark for Ultra supercars)
One reason that I've deviated from the 3.6 and 3.8 liter displacements on the Turbo and GT2 are because they nolonger are heldback by the needs to keep small displacement for racing class purposes.
Last edited by ScottKelly911; May 12, 2008 at 12:23 AM.