Fair enough. not gonna argue with that. I know that with all these small turbos, lag is not really an issue with ME. If I am in the mood to rip, I am in the right gear and that helps. I'm used to much bigger turbos. I'm sure you know but go drive a 930 with a K27 or K29 on it or a Supra with a T88!! Thats lag. All this arguement about lag, like people are going from K16's to T88'S! My 24/18g's are almost done, so I'll be able to see the difference from 16's to 18g's on my own car. I have dynos for baseline, mufflers and then flash/mufflers. Now I can add the 18g's and see and feel the difference for myself. My decision for doing the 18g's was basically this forum and the overwhelming positive feedback for this turbo as an all around go fast street turbo. This is the bottom line, (for me, that is...) I PERSONALLY am a highway guy and I know that a K16, no matter what configuration, runs out of turbo on the top...not the turbo for me. If you are a street guy and like to rip from light to light, it seems the 16G is the perfect turbo, No doubt. I spent a lot of time and money doing a flash and mufflers and when all was said and done I was not really happy, because of the turbo thing. Sure it ran better but I shoulda done 18G's from the start. Personal preference thats all.

 

I will agree there is a lag difference from a stock K16 to larger turbos or K16 hybrids, as I noticed slight increased lag when I went to K16/24's. As far as K16/24 to K24/18G, I have not noticed any difference - they feel very similar to me.

 

At what RPM did you guys notice a loss in power difference between the K16 and the K24, In other words where does the power trail off?


I do remember the 930 and how much lag it had. A friend of hte family had a brand new one in 78 and I remember the rush when the turbo kicked in.

 

would you feel more lag if you do K24/18g but not do fuel?

 

Aren't K24s strong from the mid-range onwards and not just at top of the range? The reference to just top end power makes it sound like you have to be over 6000rpm to get the power out of them.

 

Seems like going in circle here because everyone has different experiences depending on several factors:

#1 Flash vs non Flash K16 or K24 or hybrid
#2 Type of flash - we've seen all kinds of results depending on who flashed it
#3 Additional mods (wastegates, DV's, exhaust,fuel system, intake) which can all make a big difference, IMO the comparisons are useless without isolating the desired variable so all the additional mods have to be listed.
#4 Driver shifting skill
#5 Testing conditions.


I've driven a stock TT, an Orton Flashed K16 car, Orton K24/exhaust car (mine) and a Orton 700+ hp car with hybrids.

IMO the K16 car was too slow to even be compared with mine, maybe my exhaust helped a lot, but I didnt have DVs yet and the K24 car was WAYYYY faster, though maybe a split second slower in boost kicking in which may be the result of the K16 car jumping a rolling start, but no way 2 carlengths.


The K16 car is still fast, but doesnt have the top end of the K24 car, and it doesnt take 150 mph to realize the difference, there is a huge difference in torque as well. Of course unless we have scientific data, it's still butt dynos and roll races which are hardly all that consistent or accurate.

But in terms of reference speed, my car ran toe to toe with a 475 rwhp Z06 and even pulled a little bit in 3rd and 4th. Prior to DV's which got me a lot of power.

 

Heavy is right, in that we are not actually comparing apples to apples. It's very likely a K16 car with mufflers, DV's, intake etc,etc will perform exceptionally better than say, a stock K24 car. So it seems to me that on these cars (and most cars) the additional mods have a significant impact on turbo performance.

 

I agree -

In summary, Is there additional lag from a base K16? Yes, a little

is it a big deal? IMO, no the car drives very similar, but with more mid and upper power. If you are driving at 4000 RPM's and you hit the gas hard, the car leaps.... And it pulls so much harder.

So it comes down to do you want a little quicker spool and less power or slightly slower spool and a lot more power. IMO, the amount of addtional lag is very minimal.

In answer to dreamtripper, the k24 based turbos hit very hard in the low to mid 4000 RPM range and onward. It's definitely not a 6,000 RPM thing.

BTW - we are currently dynoing my car with our new SpeedTech 70 to 75mm intake system and the Vivid dual snorkel air box, on a cooler day. With pump gas, spool-up is 350 RPM's sooner and HP is up about 20-25HP, as compared to the 100 degree dyno posted above. I'll post a dyno once we're done tuning, probably later tonight.

 

Here is a racevideo between a upgraded (ECU and exhaust) 996 K16 vs 996 K24 without mods.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-V0DX_TKxU

 

Here is a dyno of stock k16's vs. K24/18's. These were done on the same dyno, at the same temperature, but on different days. It shows the lag difference up to about 3400 RPM's, where the 24/18's take over.

 

I wonder if we can get Tony to post this scenario with a stock k16 vs. a 16G? It seems that everyone wants to see this sheet compared to that one? IMO the little bit of lag is insignificant based on the "area under the curve".

 

that dyno sheet doesn't say much, your comparing a totally stock k16 to a modded turbo, of course a modded turbo should spin better. Too bad that sheet did not show stock to stock comparison, that would have been appropo. or K16/24g to K24/18g would have been good....do you have one of those, since you previously did have the modded k16's...

 

It shows that compared to a bone stock K16 car (no chip, no nothing), which everyone is familiar with (and few regard as "laggy"), there is little additional lag on a full blown K24/18g setup. I think that says alot actually.

There is no such thing as a K16/24g. The K prefix refers to a series of turbos made by Borg Warner (KKK). The g suffix designates a mitsubishi series turbo. Popular hybrids include using a K24 (borg) compressor with a K16 (borg) turbine or a 16g (mitsu) compressor with a K16 (borg warner) turbine. What we are dealing with here is a K24 (borg) frame turbo with a Mitsu 18g compressor wheel machined in.

 

would the same turbo's apply for a tiptronic ? or is that a different animal?

 

www.ngtmotorsport.com has a few used sets of used K24's, I might get a set.