John, I'm sorry, I should have mentioned that at the same time. Nothing about the flow bench will show recovery times, that is a given. Flow data is as important to me as recovery times are to you. My past experience with small cores and pressure drop has greatly impacted performance. As an example, a popular fmic option for the b5s4 when run with twin gt28 hybrids, was blocked at 32psi with 100%wg dc. When switching to a side mount of greater cross sectional area, with the same wg dc, saw 38psi and lower temps. (map sensor is post IC)

Without drawing any conclusions before we have some more data to go on, I would hypothesize that the .2 coolers would perform better seeing track duty with a stock framed turbo, and even possibly a larger framed turbo, however, as turbos get bigger & boost increases, maximum power output would start to taper off as the .2 coolers became a flow restriction. The 4.5 cores IMO are catering towards the higher power cars. As Earl mentioned as well, Marston is the UTC company I was referring to offer some extremely high efficiency cores. We had a twin gtx45 viper on our dyno that was using a Marston heat exchanger, smaller than one would expect on a car with turbos that size, however was over 4000usd for the core alone. If the market would support using cores like that, I would be making them, but I highly doubt any would sell even with supporting performance data.

Good discussion

Question for John, how much would you be prepared to pay for a high efficiency IC?

 

Bear in mind, when you let off the gas and the stored heat is released that a good bit of it heads for the intake too not just out the ducts.

I do wonder, should we be spending effort on trying to increase flow through the quarter ducts? Itguy, you aren't running top ducts correct?

 

we have debated the gt2 RS ICs in many threads...

here are 2 logs from a shop in Louisiana, they are dyno logs with snail fans on outlets of ICs.. these are brand new gt2 RS ICs on a stock 2008 TT VTG with exhaust and some tune... one is with sport on and the other with sport off button... I can forward the actual logs for anyone that wants to see it in full.. the car is acting up pulling timing crazy but look at the intake temps how high they rose.. Now this is not my car nor my dyno nor my tune but rather last weeks independent dyno pulls.
On these logs the RS do not seem to do all that well... one pull is at barely 1.2 bar the other 1.4 bar and drops to 1.2 plus... both 4th gear... Does that mean all RS ICs do this poorly? no I dont think so...
Anyways, my point is that we all can show data to discredit and or promote XXX ICs... We all talk about cooling , what about flow... because the better they cool the worse they flow due to the fin design. My other point is , Im not trying stir anything up, I even triple checked to see if they are gt 2 RS... Some gauge performance based on temps only, some on road track performance, some on 1/4 and dyno, etc... I just think the the truth is in the middle in this case and if something sounds too good to be true it probably is.. learned that in Econ 101 back in 1987 at Marquette U

 

Hi Sean,
Thank you for chiming in. I appreciate your input and sharing your knowledge. How much would I want to pay for a high efficiency IC? Obviously as little as possible. Kidding aside, I mentioned that for me a figure of $3-4K would be realistic for an intercooler that provided tangible benefits over the 997.2s. This would put the price at basically 3x that of the 997.2s. Based on the information you and Earl have provided, It appears that that may not be realistic due to the cost of a high end aerospace core.

I think an ideal IC (for road course racing) would be one that used a similar quality aerospace core to the 997.2s but maybe just slightly larger. This would marginally improve flow while still offering excellent thermal recovery. I don't think flow is an issues on the 997.2s for 600-650hp or so. Finally, weight of the IC would remain similar to the lightweight 997.2s. I really don't want to add 20+ lbs to the back of the car. Additionally, in a perfect world, the end tanks would be composite as in the 997.2s to insulate the intercooler core and prevent heat transfer. Composite end tanks (no the 997.2s are NOT plastic as many believe) offer superior insulating properties to aluminum. This part, I know is not realistic due to cost, and aluminum end tanks would have to be used.

The one item that I'm beginning to consider is improving airflow over the intercooler core, which in turn would improve it's cooling ability. Manthey makes an IC duct inlet that is claimed to provided a reduction of 5-10C of intake temperature by simply funneling more air over the intercooler. This is fairly substantial. For those not familiar, Mathey Racing is a race shop in Germany based at the Nurburgring. They have a rich history of racing Porsches all over Europe including RSRs at the 24 hrs of LeMans. This is no mom and pop shop. They have deep pockets and spend a lot on development backed up by REAL data. They have the ideal test track in their back yard and I would tend to believe their claims. Using their ducts may just be another way to skin the cat as I could retain the quick thermal recovery of the 997.2s while at the same time improving their ability to further lower IATs an additional 5-10ºC (9-14ºF). Just a thought...

http://www.manthey-motors.de/nextsho...docid=88&e1=66

 

I believe that moving as much air through the ducts and over the core is absolutely imperative in facilitating the transfer of heat away from the IC core, especially in applications when you are trying to preserve the effective function of the intercooler for prolonged use (i.e. endurance racing). This may not be as critical for drag racing or 60-130 short term operation.. Bottom line is, if you can't effective move air through the core of the intercooler, then it really doesn't matter how good or big your IC is. If you can't effectively more air through the core, your IC will become a heat soaked chunk of aluminum.

 

interesting and mostly beyond the scope of my comprehension, but i sure know of manthey and their well established rep. it sounds as if a great bang for the buck might be the gt2rs ic's and the manthey inlets. that sounds like an ideal combo.

great info.

 

Ideal combo for road racing with small turbos. Not ideal at all for high horsepower.

 

i did get that. thanks. that makes sense to me. but i'll always be one of the small frys, 600rwhp max. it's enough for me. i've lived.

 

Would love to see this log. -18 Wow! I like to promote the stuff that works while having the facts to back it up.

 

I have an idea for this.


Have you seen some of the large SUV's with chrome 22" rims that never stop once they start moving? Incorporate this advanced technology utilizing a turbine at the 1/3 point of the intake!

Constant airflow for an additional 10mins! ShamWow



The track that we run, doesn't have a lot of straight stretches to help aid in cooling. Agree with the heat soaked aluminum comment. Larger will take more time to heat up but, once it has heat, good luck getting rid of it within a few seconds.

 

That duct is pretty much what I expected - something larger that reaches out into the airflow. I'd expect that to move more air since the scoop would no longer simply be an intake but would do some force feeding if it's true the bottom ducts suck air through.

I'm honestly not convinced phenolic end tanks are the way to go, to me it's cheap mass to absorb additional heat. I could be convinced otherwise but I've never seen any data indicating this is better. No, a larger intercooler won't shed all of it's heat as quickly as a smaller one but it's capacity is greater and it will dump as much heat if not more than a smaller one given a chance - it need not return to baseline. When you consider how little heat the smaller low mass units can handle it's worthwhile IMO since the small ones will soak and allow IAT to skyrocket.

Datalogging two different cores on opposite sides of a car seems like the only way to really get good answers, roadcourse, drag, and say a mile or half mile pull?

 

Great idea on the logging part BLKMGK!


I would buy one for the comparison and log it. Which brand?


One question though,


Will the difference in airflow cause an imbalance situation leading to, an inaccurate balance of intake airflow thus increasing the Intake temps to one bank? Just my logical theory or objection.


I like the idea but, I am no expert on thermal airflow while maintaining balance or harmony within the intake system with two variables.

 

The greatest percentage of modded cars will be in that 500-650whp range. Only a very tiny fraction of the cars out there will be 800+whp and will need huge flowing cores to benefit during the short duration 1/4 mile run, yet that is pretty much all that is offered in the AM..

 

well, of all I've read the manthey ducts with the 997.2's seems like a really good combo. even for a guy like me. any idea on the cost of the manthey's? I guess they have to ship from uk also.


I ask because injectors and i/cs are my next step in this never ending process. thx pwdr.

 

They are 900 Euro, so right at $1000. With shipping factored in, I'd figure $1100. That's not cheap but not outrageous in the scheme of things, especially if they do offer an additional 9-14F drop. I believe its very possible because the later 997 and especially 991 wide body cars have much more pronounced air intakes that are more exposed to incoming air offering a ram air effect to the IC intake as opposed to solely relying on the venturi effect of the bumper outlets. The Manthey inlets are carbon fibre and good quality I would imagine. I'm thinking that if we could get a few guys interested we might be able to do a small group buy and knock a few buck off the price. I'll contact Manthey and get some more info.