Buddy/CJV , your next step !
#31
12-14-2003, 12:20 PM
Several things, mostly the size of the journals. 900.00 for a crank...Only in a perfect world. I wish
#32
12-14-2003, 12:31 PM
OK Stephen, now I have to look at my invoices.
Crank $1,505.00
Case $3,280.00
GT1 Oil Pump $3,468.00
GT3 Cup Heads $1,770.00
GT3 Cup Lifters $306.00
GT3 Cup Valves $260.00
GT3 Cup Valves $216.00
GT3R Springs $750.00
Wossner 102 mm pistons, liners, wrist pins $2,800.00
Ruf Titanium steel rods $2,800.00
I was confusing the cost of a head with the crank. The information I have says the GT3 and the turbo crank are the same. Oh, $600 was my cost to knife edge the crank complete including final machining for balance.
Crank $1,505.00
Case $3,280.00
GT1 Oil Pump $3,468.00
GT3 Cup Heads $1,770.00
GT3 Cup Lifters $306.00
GT3 Cup Valves $260.00
GT3 Cup Valves $216.00
GT3R Springs $750.00
Wossner 102 mm pistons, liners, wrist pins $2,800.00
Ruf Titanium steel rods $2,800.00
I was confusing the cost of a head with the crank. The information I have says the GT3 and the turbo crank are the same. Oh, $600 was my cost to knife edge the crank complete including final machining for balance.
Last edited by cjv; 12-14-2003 at 12:34 PM.
#33
12-14-2003, 12:33 PM
Quite frankly Chad I could care less if your car is what you say it is. So oh well, if I don't get to ever see it perform. You aren't breaking my heart. I am not the only one on this list that is getting tired of all your talk and nothing to back it up. Bottom line is put up or shut up!
I put up with a car that is still a work in progress where were you?
I put up with a car that is still a work in progress where were you?
#39
12-14-2003, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by Kevin
A little history for you guys. Some of us have had the failures of the past haunt us in the quest for power. Porsche has always built a solid crankshaft. The 3.3ltr 930 was the last car to have a counter-weighted crankshaft. When the 964 came out Porsche stretched things out and got rid of the counterweights. They also realized that they had a harmonic problem with there cranks. To band-aid this they installed a Damper on the crankshaft. For an engine builder we know that the flat six is in theory dynamically balanced, so why would someone need a damper. Well years ago, I found that the 964 crank had a wobble in it, Bent if you want to say. So to cure the problem one has to straighten the crank and then rebalance it to make it live. Of course one can then shed the damper.... The rod journals in the 964 crank share the same width of its past 930 cousins.
With the 993 coming of age Porsche felt that it needed to lose weight in the rotating assy. They did this by cheaping out in the rods and crank department. Here, here, the measurement from 930 days were 17.80mm rod bearing widths cut down to 14.60mm. The rods were compromised in strength to accomidate the diet.
As I have just posted, it would be awesome for some owner to step up to the plate and say, lets try 600HP in a stock configuration. However, engines in the past have not lived. The 996TT shares the same design of the weaker 993 crank..
The 996 GT3 crank is a counterweighted full bearing (ala 930,964) width design. We know that this crank can be twisted to 8500RPM... It is also known that with a turbocharged engine the actual rotating assy is not brutally shocked like its normally aspirated cousins. So in theory one could twist more R's in the 996TT. At that RPM there are oiling and case issues that need to be address, along with crankshaft prep that CJV is leading the way with (smile)...
A little history for you guys. Some of us have had the failures of the past haunt us in the quest for power. Porsche has always built a solid crankshaft. The 3.3ltr 930 was the last car to have a counter-weighted crankshaft. When the 964 came out Porsche stretched things out and got rid of the counterweights. They also realized that they had a harmonic problem with there cranks. To band-aid this they installed a Damper on the crankshaft. For an engine builder we know that the flat six is in theory dynamically balanced, so why would someone need a damper. Well years ago, I found that the 964 crank had a wobble in it, Bent if you want to say. So to cure the problem one has to straighten the crank and then rebalance it to make it live. Of course one can then shed the damper.... The rod journals in the 964 crank share the same width of its past 930 cousins.
With the 993 coming of age Porsche felt that it needed to lose weight in the rotating assy. They did this by cheaping out in the rods and crank department. Here, here, the measurement from 930 days were 17.80mm rod bearing widths cut down to 14.60mm. The rods were compromised in strength to accomidate the diet.
As I have just posted, it would be awesome for some owner to step up to the plate and say, lets try 600HP in a stock configuration. However, engines in the past have not lived. The 996TT shares the same design of the weaker 993 crank..
The 996 GT3 crank is a counterweighted full bearing (ala 930,964) width design. We know that this crank can be twisted to 8500RPM... It is also known that with a turbocharged engine the actual rotating assy is not brutally shocked like its normally aspirated cousins. So in theory one could twist more R's in the 996TT. At that RPM there are oiling and case issues that need to be address, along with crankshaft prep that CJV is leading the way with (smile)...
I wake up on a Sunday in my PJs and learned something new
#40
12-14-2003, 01:26 PM
Stephen,
Do you know of any differences between the GT3 and turbo crank? It has been awhile since I investigated. I couldn't find a difference outside of the GT3R crank not having an way to mount the dampener. I believe and I may be wrong, but the part numbers are the same. All information I had pointed to the cranks being the same.
Do you know of any differences between the GT3 and turbo crank? It has been awhile since I investigated. I couldn't find a difference outside of the GT3R crank not having an way to mount the dampener. I believe and I may be wrong, but the part numbers are the same. All information I had pointed to the cranks being the same.
Last edited by cjv; 12-14-2003 at 01:38 PM.
#41
12-14-2003, 02:22 PM
The bearing journal size is the biggest difference. Not on the mains, but on the rods. That in itself is a very big factor in my eyes. The crank as a whole is much better than the turbo crank. In fact, if you had a nice 964 crank that was knife-edge and balanced it would make a better crank then the factory 996TT crank.
#43
12-14-2003, 03:02 PM
CJV,
I guess you have a very different turbo then. Too bad I can't read about them anymore on rennlist. What is the other half of the turbo, if you don't mind me asking?
Wouldn't a bigger turbo simply push your "plateau" higher in the rev range, but with proper tunning still have that same peak power range however reach higher peaks?
Also, I know that putting smaller and smaller turbos would have the same effect, basically pressure would get maxed out. And you said your current turbo can hit 1.7. So wouldn't a bigger turbo still be able to make plenty more boost than you would need.
(I feel like this is too much of a hijack, so if I need to start a new thread or an e-mail, mods just tell me).
Also to CJV and Budman, not that my opinion counts for much but the same argument always gets tossed around and it gets old. I know you both want to stand your ground but "ignorance is bliss" Just ignore these arguments and if some day common ground is finally met, than I think both of your resources (along with many others on the board) could produce much more positive results. If everyone shared there knowledge in my opinion everyone could benefit (obviously some more than others) but than, I guess, tuners could charge the premiums they do for there secrets.
I guess you have a very different turbo then. Too bad I can't read about them anymore on rennlist. What is the other half of the turbo, if you don't mind me asking?
Wouldn't a bigger turbo simply push your "plateau" higher in the rev range, but with proper tunning still have that same peak power range however reach higher peaks?
Also, I know that putting smaller and smaller turbos would have the same effect, basically pressure would get maxed out. And you said your current turbo can hit 1.7. So wouldn't a bigger turbo still be able to make plenty more boost than you would need.
(I feel like this is too much of a hijack, so if I need to start a new thread or an e-mail, mods just tell me).
Also to CJV and Budman, not that my opinion counts for much but the same argument always gets tossed around and it gets old. I know you both want to stand your ground but "ignorance is bliss" Just ignore these arguments and if some day common ground is finally met, than I think both of your resources (along with many others on the board) could produce much more positive results. If everyone shared there knowledge in my opinion everyone could benefit (obviously some more than others) but than, I guess, tuners could charge the premiums they do for there secrets.
Originally posted by cjv
Hamann,
I have ball bearings. I also have the K16 housing.
Frosty,
Kevin is correct about lag and other attributes of the K16. With the correct A/R ratio the K16 can be deadly quick. This coupled with my gearing/tires lends to a 0-60 time that is probably over a second faster than any 996tt out there.
As for "most power," with NOS probably. Without, I make torque and HP over 1200 rpm's sooner than Budman. From the best I can figure he is making about seventeen more HP and ten foot pounds of torque more than I am without NOS. However it comes on much later and does not last anywhere near the same duration. I don't know of any 996tt that would stay with me to 185 mph. Just about all of them would over take me given enough straight away. 
Hamann,
I have ball bearings. I also have the K16 housing.
Frosty,
Kevin is correct about lag and other attributes of the K16. With the correct A/R ratio the K16 can be deadly quick. This coupled with my gearing/tires lends to a 0-60 time that is probably over a second faster than any 996tt out there.
As for "most power," with NOS probably. Without, I make torque and HP over 1200 rpm's sooner than Budman. From the best I can figure he is making about seventeen more HP and ten foot pounds of torque more than I am without NOS. However it comes on much later and does not last anywhere near the same duration. I don't know of any 996tt that would stay with me to 185 mph. Just about all of them would over take me given enough straight away.
Last edited by Frosty; 12-14-2003 at 03:10 PM.
#44
12-14-2003, 03:14 PM
Frosty,
The compressor side is a Garrett turbo. If you have any specific questions about my turbo's, e-mail me and I would be happy to get the information from S Car Go Racing for you. Regarding your advise on the other matter. It sounds good to me.
The compressor side is a Garrett turbo. If you have any specific questions about my turbo's, e-mail me and I would be happy to get the information from S Car Go Racing for you. Regarding your advise on the other matter. It sounds good to me.
Last edited by cjv; 12-14-2003 at 03:21 PM.
#45
12-14-2003, 03:25 PM
Frosty, the cool thing about a few tuners (I mean that as well) like Stephen and Kevin is that they DO share ALL of their secret sauce. They are on here hours each day just giving away free advice. Not just about their own stuff but about other products/ideas pertaining to other manufacturers etc... Whilst in San Jose I had quite of a few of my pals swing by now and again with all kinds of different cars asking for their advice and they're the same on the phone/in person.
I know Porsche tuners do charge a lot but in working with these two guys and seeing them physically at work, I got a new found respect and understanding first hand of just why. Now why Porsche charges so much for their services that often screw things up, I will never know
I know Porsche tuners do charge a lot but in working with these two guys and seeing them physically at work, I got a new found respect and understanding first hand of just why. Now why Porsche charges so much for their services that often screw things up, I will never know