Craig

I am sure your information is much more accurate than mine being that you are closer to the action, and you seem to have spent a lot of time researching for your megaproject. I just would like to give my opinion on the 2 points raised above, more in general terms rather than related to this specific turbo in question..

1- Sometimes the lack of well matched programming is due to the limitations that the tuner has as far as choosing who does it for him, or which ECU he uses i.e. commercial links, exclusivity or simply personal preference, competition etc... This is perfectly normal as I am sure you agree.
While GIAC for example can be excellent for particular kits where a lot of time was spent for calibration and programming, they might not be the best (or only) choice for a more customized solution. Some other programs out there could make these stage 4 turbos work flawlessly. What I am trying to say is that perhaps the matched programming did not work with a specific type of software, that was being used for them back then.

2- If someone wants special turbos with special components, they also need to give them special care, as you mentioned, this was the reason for failure. I find this very normal, they just need some initial care.

On the other hand, there could well be a batch of turbos (stage 4?) that did not work properly and were withdrawn as a result, I don't know really.

I think many good points are raised in this thread however, and the outcome seems to be that there are many different combinations of software and hardware out there, you just need to know who and what to pick to match it to your expectations..

 

Jean
Good morning and good night.
I agree one must do research before jumping the gun on ECU programing. How one program works with one may not work with another. There many other risks aside from just power lost if not done right.

 

Euh, which one is it now?

 

I agree with everything you wrote Jean.

1. I don't think the lack of well matched programming was due to an inability to write a suitable program, but rather, a lack of time spent writing the program. As far as I know, there is nothing about Kevin's Stage IV turbos that makes tham program defiant. I *think* people were trying to work with existing programs designed for other turbos, rather than investing the time and money to write and fine tune a program specifically for these turbos. I have no doubt that Protomotive or GIAC could write not only a suitable, but perfectly matched, program if tasked to do so (just as GIAC designed a program specifically for Kevin's Stage V turbos, in collaboration with Speed Gallery).

Craig

 

Yups.. too often people try to piece together hardware and software from different places that wasn't necessarily designed to work together. If you're getting Kevin's turbos then I believe he now has his own "tuning/software" as well. Why not try to go that route rather than mixing and matching? Craig is right, back in September of 03 Kevin, Stephen and myself tried to do the Stage IV turbos with the GT640 software with permission from Todd/GIAC. They were kind enough to let us use it and refine it some. It wasn't a "perfect" match in that the hardware and software wasn't tuned together on a dyno but with some adaption and a 5bar FPR it did seem to work pretty well. Back then there were limitations in terms of time, knowledge and choice. Now that situation doesn't exist anymore so I believe the best thing to do would be to get whatever programing goes _with_ those turbos? Just my opinion but in this case I think that's the best route. You can ask GIAC if they have a program for the Stage IVs? Or Todd@Protomotive because they might well but if they have I haven't heard of it.

 

I had a chance to mix and match... and it was all the same.... I know I will spark some disagreements... but ,my friends, a k24 or a k24 hybrid or a k16/hybrid... all these are within 600 hp.
after all, we are mixing and matching products as is... I had gt2 ICs, fvd plenum, custom made air box, 2 different stages on the same turbos.. and my car ran fine. I even had straight pipes.. thus changing the velocity and back pressure... I also had kevins headers... etc... NON OF THIS WAS TUNED INTO MU ECU. and yet my car ran fine... no hick ups...
we see guys doing bolt ons all the time. and yet the original program was not written for it.
now, Craig and Sharky, forgive me if Im wrong... but didnt you guys share the same program? and yet you guys had very different components on the cars?...
maybe Im way off on this one... its just my observation... no harm intended.

 

We did have the same program for a while and other than ICs/intake plenum we actually have the same stuff. I have similair ICs and the intake plenum flows "similairly" as well. I don't believe we have the same program anymore tho? My kit is a GT800 kit and I do not have all the stuff that Craig has added to his. My car has everything Todd's car has only it's a Tip.

 

I agree now, but at some point u guys shared the program... and had meth.injection... gemballa plenum, etc.. simply different components...
and yet both car ran fine... and mind u thats at 700+ rwhp...
what Im trying to deduce is, is it possible if u have to... to mix and match certain products including turbos.... especially if they are close in performance to each other...
Alex, u ran a 11.1 1/4 in that staeg 4 ZC turbo.... on the gt640 program... hmmm.. I havent yet seen any posts of guys running 11.1s on the gt640 full tuning package... so maybe you had something there... u just progressed and moved up?
I had the stage 5 GIAC with kevins satge 5 matching turbos... originally they were written for the stock FPR. but with all my add ons... including the billet WGs... my car ran lean... so I put in a 5 bar and it fixed most of the issues. then I boosted the hell out of her... and just watched my AFRs... and I gained 67 rwhp. and yet the original program was not written for this type of tweaking.
just sharing my observations.... and I wish I had some control over the ecu liek I do over my stand alone in my evo 8.

 

Is it possible to mix and match stuff? Oh absolutely... within reason the ECU adapts etc.. and it takes a lot for the car to actually run like **** so to speak. However is it optimal to mix and match? Not really, I think it's best to have the _exact_ parts/hardware that a specific program was written for or have the car custom tuned etc... I haven't run any GT640s at the drag strip but I know the cars pretty well. Actually Fred's ran 11.3 @ 128 on 19s at the same time/place mine ran 11.13 on 18s so that's something I guess. If anyone with a Tip GT640 (since that's what mine sorta was) wants to have a crack at the drag strip lemme know. I'd be interested to drive hehe. There are enough of you bay area folks out there that's for sure. I've got to say I'd be very confident that those cars could also do 11.1-11.2 in the 1/4. They're the same turbos as the GT700s so spool is very similair, which is important in the 1/4mile.

 

Mark,

While I agree that the program need not be written for each individual component on a car, I think it should match the particular characteristics of the turbos. Nothing affects the volume of air flowing to the engine more than the turbos. Thus, while a particular program may smoothly accomodate slight variations in air flow arising from different exhausts, intake piping, intercoolers, etc., it may not be able to effectively accomodate the greater variations attributable to different turbos.

Sharky graciously allowed me to use a program that EVOMS and GIAC designed specifially for his car, and I used that program prior to my recent upgrades. Even though we had slight variations in our set-ups, we were using the same turbos, and therefore, the program worked great for both of our cars. With my current set-up, which includes several additions that require special programming considerations, including larger valves, EVOMS exhaust cams, and an increased rev limiter, EVOMS and GIAC are designing a custom program for my car.

Craig

 

I agree.. and that was my point... u did it with kevins turbos on a gt 640 program. so it does seem to work.. with in reason... maybe ?

 

I ran kevins stage 2 turbos with giac stage 3/4 software and the car ran very well and strong. I was very impressed with that setup.

Evoms stage 4 kit only uses k24 turbos. If you go through IA, Stephen will give you the option of going with k24's or Kevins stage 2's.

Jag

 

well then, u just answered all of our questions.... thanks

 

Jags: good info.
Is that what you run now?
MK

 

So now my question is, I currently have a stock GIAC II programming with my stock K16's. Since these new turbos are K16/24, will the programming match to the K16 side of the turbo? I know it may not be a perfect program for these, but it should work. Quote from Sharky....."within reason the ECU adapts etc.. and it takes a lot for the car to actually run like **** so to speak".