Also If You Are Increasing Flow, Increasing Breathing Maybe We Need To Increase The Rpm Range.......... I Think 6500 Is A Little Low When You Consider How Much More You Could Make??????

 

No matter whose intercooler is being discussed, you need to cut to the chase and post the efficiency percentage. Compressed air temperature at IC intake minus air temperature at IC exit gives you the delta (difference between intake and exit). Determine the ambient air temperature, do the math with the IC exit temperature and you can determine the IC efficiency. For those with any interest, Andial use to make just such a gauge that provided in, out and delta temperature readings.

Anything else "could" be just alot of hot air. Air flow does not have to be proportional to cooling ability. Cooler air is more condensed air which in turn contains more oxygen. Oxygen by itself is a catalyst (oxidizer) and does not make power. The ability to add more fuel or more efficiently burn existing fuel is where the added power comes from.

There is also a point where lowering the charged air temperature further renders very marginal returns in power increases. If you do enough testing you can figure that temperature out on your own.

 

Nicely Done........... There Must Be An Engineer Reading These Post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I Agree Completely

 

Guys,

I must say, considering the amount of time & effort taken by EVOMS to come out with such pieces, i believe you can get substantial increases in performance; be it lower temps, more efficiency or better flow. I personally know that they do not come out with a new part unless it performs as they want it to, in this case the percentage in flow of their intercoolers, is better than what they were actualy looking for from the start of the project.

robmd99,
Most, if not all of us would love to mod our cars with the least amount of dough to come out of our wallets. But, to be fair, the price of their intercoolers is fair. Considering that they include the silicone boost hoses with the kit.

As a general rule, and this is from an amature experience; the more of a temperature reduction experienced from bolting a better intercooler, helps in gains of HP figures, a decrease in the chances of detonation.

I hope someone from EVOMS or IA can give us a better description of the characteristics and advantages of these intercoolers. As well as, the actual facts of whether a person needs to remap his/her ecu after bolting these intercoolers on their car. Especially, since there is more cooler air getting into the combustion chamber.

 

$4K is fair for custom ICs..... I had mine done custom one offs.. same cores as craigs... and it cost me $2200 with the cores.... that at $70/hour labor. mine are 2.5 inch diameter in/out instead of stock 2 inch piping.
BUt I also gave up 3 days of my time ... taking the car apart and helping out with the work... so all in all.... its an OK price... not to steal the thread.. just showing my end result....

 

Markski,

When you add the price for the upper & lower (left & right) boost hoses kit, we come to a total of $3.995.00 . If we subtract the price of the boost hoses that retail for $1,375.00 . We come to the fact that the intercoolers are at a cost of $2620.00 . Is this clearer to see ?


P.S. I have no affiliation with EVOMS or any of their work force. It's just that i am one of their customers, and get a very good customer and product satisfaction.

 

Im not disputing the price... I know whats involved making them... I did it.
its alot of work.

 

My apologies, i thought you were taking the ****. Any flow numbers on yours ?

 

when I get my car back with twin GT35rs... I guess that will be the ultimate test. about 3 weeks away.
The design was and sizing was done by Todd Knighton but my local fabricator did the actual work. I also have low 10 second evo8 so Im very familiar with air flow...

 

A dyno isn't going to tell anything about intercoolers most of the time. Intercoolers do not add power, they allow you to gain back the power you lost. If your intercoolers are running in their efficiency range then the net would be minimal. If it was heat soaked and the newer intercoolers were 50 % more efficient then you would gain back what the heat soak cost you. The intercoolers were flowed in a flow Superflo bench. I can find out the in. of water they were tested in if you really want to know.

As far as the tuning, so if you add something like turbos then the time to search out the proper mapping, turbo size then the endless hours on the dyno to tune should be offered at a cost of nothing? How can this make sense? In order to be competitive you make little margin on the product to begin with and schedule 3 years out to recoup production and manufacturing cost. Then add at least 50-100 hours on the dyno and hope the product sells.

I wish it was as simple as giving the product for cost then the upgrades for free. I think the misconception is tuners make 50% profit margin, unless you have development and produced something you can not phantom the amount of time spent nor the production cost to develop a product. Then you wait and hope all the units you have sitting on the shelf sell and you start to make your money back.

 

In that light if it is raised are you willing to change your rods? If you aren’t then you are asking for a real problem.

 

Have you ever tested the calibration of that gauge? It is not accurate at all. We discovered this on a Motec system we installed and were running the Andial gauge and the datlog on the Motec was much different. At times it was 18-20% off in the numbers. This is not a unit I would trust. As far as the numbers, they will be released when we all get the go ahead.

 

I certainly agree with Stephen concerning the recovery of opportunity loss when it comes to HP with better intercoolers, rather than making more HP.

A couple of things that are very important, as long as you are running high boost and as a result turbos that are running <70% efficiency (unless you go really big and then you have huge lag), you will not get sustained performance since the heat generated by the hot air the turbos blow will result in lower air density, knocking and pulling the timing on your engine. The time of a dyno run (or drag race) you will se improvement, even steady state dyno pulls etc..etc.. which does not mean that you do in real life under sustained driving conditions.

The Andial gauge does not fit the purpose, as Stephen said and this was discussed long time ago in this thread: http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...7&postcount=17 I am not sure even the Motec sensors do. The only way to get this right is by looking at it the way the Motronic ECU does. As long as you are using temp sensors that are used for water, oil and air, you will not get the real results, they are too slow.

The way to go is with a specific sensor which has the ntc sender exposed to airstream...or hook up the Bosch hammer while you are doing your runs and see live the impact of knock and intake temps.

The way to go is with improved efficiency in the engine through better airflow paths, and a balanced package, allowing you to produce more HP at lower boost levels, this is the secret of lasting performance, and what makes you win races....expensive intercoolers are fundamental, but they need to come second to proper mapping and matching components.

 

Over the past four months, I interacted with EVOMS/Todd on a regular basis and, given that I was upgrading my intercoolers and EVOMS was fabricating the end tanks, we spent a good deal of time discussing EVOMS’ R&D relating to its new intercoolers. Therefore, I am very familiar with what went into EVOMS’ design of these new intercoolers.

EVOMS did not simply find an existing after-market intercooler and engrave their name on it, nor did they simply buy cores and slap on a good looking end tank. Rather, EVOMS invested substantial time, effort and money to design a high quality, performance enhancing intercooler upgrade from scratch. EVOMS experimented with many different end tank designs, and they spent many hours flow testing the different configurations in order to determine the optimal design. EVOMS spent countless hours designing and fabricating each experimental design. In order to conduct this type of R&D, EVOMS must employ a full time fabricator and maintain a R&D shop, with specialized tools, machinery and materials, and EVOMS could not bill out its fabricator for customer work during the time that he spent on the R&D for the intercoolers ($100/hr). The cost of these efforts is considerable. I suspect EVOMS will have invested well over fifteen thousand dollars in R&D (perhaps more) on these intercoolers before they sell their first set. Once the design is finalized, EVOMS must invest substantial capital to acquire the cores in bulk, acquire the separate end tanks in bulk, weld the tanks to the cores, and inventory the units until they are sold. Finally, remember that the market for 996TT after-market parts, and particularly parts beyond wheels, exhaust, suspension and ECU, is very small -- a company that creates an after-market part for a Mustang or 350Z can spread his R&D costs over thousands of units -- in contrast, EVOMS must spread its R&D costs over substantially fewer units.

Based on the foregoing, the price charged by EVOMS appears more than reasonable.

Regarding the intercoolers used by Markski and I, they are not bolt-ons, they require modifications to the car itself, AND you must find a trustworthy fabricator to design and fabricate an end-tank, and hope it works. The beauty of EVOMS’ new intercoolers is that they are a direct replacement unit that bolts right on, without any additional modifications, and the design of the end tanks has been tested and proven. No need for any of the modifications that were necessary to get my intercoolers to fit. No need to guess at the end tank design. Its plug and play. Moreover, for all but the highest power cars, I doubt the larger cores will make any meaningful difference (they may even be overkill for my car).

Craig

 

Intake temperature is loggable via the OBD-2 Port isn't it (with the right tools)?

If so, then run the car WOT 0-200mph so it's heat-soaked and log the car's intake temperatures before/after the i/c conversion and compare to the ambient temperatures on the runs.

Guy