Interesting
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Interesting
The April issue of Excellence has an article about the Ten Best Driver's Porsche's. People like Alwin Springer, Walter Rohrl etc. are on the panel. Although they place the 996tt in different positions, the ones that choose the 996tt choose the 2001 year model.
They chose the 2001 model over the 2002, 3 and 4? I heard that the 2002s onwards were a little heavier because of the extra creature comforts added in later years but other than that, I do wonder why?
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Re: Interesting
Originally posted by cjv
The April issue of Excellence has an article about the Ten Best Driver's Porsche's. People like Alwin Springer, Walter Rohrl etc. are on the panel. Although they place the 996tt in different positions, the ones that choose the 996tt choose the 2001 year model.
The April issue of Excellence has an article about the Ten Best Driver's Porsche's. People like Alwin Springer, Walter Rohrl etc. are on the panel. Although they place the 996tt in different positions, the ones that choose the 996tt choose the 2001 year model.
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Maybe they don't like the fact that the 2002 and up are stiffer than the '01.
Here is a quote from the 2002 German Product Information book...
Here is a quote from the 2002 German Product Information book...
"The body on all 911 models is largely based on the previous generation of 911 Carreras. Sills,roof frame and seat wells have been reinforced, improving static flexural strength and torsional rigidity by 25% as well as optimizing the dynamic rigidity or nautral frequency of the car. The result is a significant improvement in both driving dynamics and comfort".
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Hello
sorry didn´t have that mag
Just short. ( some kind of short
)
When Porsche introduced the GT3 they made some improvments to bodystiffness ( especially on the frontend ).
Those improvments went into all 996 "WideBodys" ( using wide & fat rims that was TT and GT versions ).
In 2002 the sheetmetallimprovements went into all 996 ( and even partially Boxster ) as it made no sense to produce two different sheetmetallraws for the same purpose.
However some additional things done to reinforce the GT/TT versions didn´t see regular production ( I´m not talking about the Rollbar/Cage configuration ).
Reguarding to rumors a GT/TT had some 15 additional menminutes at the bodyfabrication/weldingsection wich made it impossible to run them within the regular line scedule so they got mostly "sequenzed in" or moved to external stations.
Well thats a very very old Porsche Tradition
On later TT´s this wasn´t needed anymore as the improvments went into the complete line ( see abouve ) and got optimized in flow as well.
A other reason is that some drivers only drove the car when it was released and didn´t had the opportunity to drive newer models so they can´t say if a 2001 is equal/better then a 2003.
Well maybe we should assume that. But every serious comment should reflect the base parameters wich they are based on.
Now on Walter holding up the 2001 ? Maybe it is based on the fact that he is the inhose parameter and the 2001 was more orientat onto his wishes for a Rally/Race car compromissing with the actual streetusable tires.
Just recall how much influence a good or bad tirechoice can have at the same car.
Said that Röhrl supposly didn´t touched any "normal" TT in combination with streetitres ( that is done by inhousetestdrivers )except his own private car wich is unfortunatly a 2001 MY. ( According to him that car was so good that it made his 959 obselete and so he sold that ). So his baseparameter is his own TT with actuall tires. And we all know that Röhrl is mostly impressed by cars who are runing econiminal and have a good&handy "package" rather then a brute force beast most people on this board seem to desire.
GrĂĽssle
sorry didn´t have that mag
Just short. ( some kind of short
)When Porsche introduced the GT3 they made some improvments to bodystiffness ( especially on the frontend ).
Those improvments went into all 996 "WideBodys" ( using wide & fat rims that was TT and GT versions ).
In 2002 the sheetmetallimprovements went into all 996 ( and even partially Boxster ) as it made no sense to produce two different sheetmetallraws for the same purpose.
However some additional things done to reinforce the GT/TT versions didn´t see regular production ( I´m not talking about the Rollbar/Cage configuration ).
Reguarding to rumors a GT/TT had some 15 additional menminutes at the bodyfabrication/weldingsection wich made it impossible to run them within the regular line scedule so they got mostly "sequenzed in" or moved to external stations.
Well thats a very very old Porsche Tradition
On later TT´s this wasn´t needed anymore as the improvments went into the complete line ( see abouve ) and got optimized in flow as well.
A other reason is that some drivers only drove the car when it was released and didn´t had the opportunity to drive newer models so they can´t say if a 2001 is equal/better then a 2003.
Well maybe we should assume that. But every serious comment should reflect the base parameters wich they are based on.
Now on Walter holding up the 2001 ? Maybe it is based on the fact that he is the inhose parameter and the 2001 was more orientat onto his wishes for a Rally/Race car compromissing with the actual streetusable tires.
Just recall how much influence a good or bad tirechoice can have at the same car.
Said that Röhrl supposly didn´t touched any "normal" TT in combination with streetitres ( that is done by inhousetestdrivers )except his own private car wich is unfortunatly a 2001 MY. ( According to him that car was so good that it made his 959 obselete and so he sold that ). So his baseparameter is his own TT with actuall tires. And we all know that Röhrl is mostly impressed by cars who are runing econiminal and have a good&handy "package" rather then a brute force beast most people on this board seem to desire.
GrĂĽssle
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Originally posted by Dock (Atlanta)
Maybe they don't like the fact that the 2002 and up are stiffer than the '01.
Here is a quote from the 2002 German Product Information book...
Maybe they don't like the fact that the 2002 and up are stiffer than the '01.
Here is a quote from the 2002 German Product Information book...
Roy
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Roy
I first started looking into this after I picked up my '02. I noticed it felt stiffer than the '01's I had driven so I asked Greg (at J. Ellis) and he said Porsche had made modifications for the MY '02 cars resulting in a chassis that was about 20% stiffer than previous. His information was obtained during one of his trips to the factory. I decided to find confirmation about this from another source, so I e-mailed a good friend who is a Porsche Regional Sales manager. He confirmed the modifications and said it was more like 25% stiffer. He included in his e-mail the quote from the German Product Information book.
I don't have a copy of the Information book, and don't have any other information about the "stiffness" issue. While it may in fact not be true, I have two good sources that say it is true, plus my SOTP informal survey.
If there is more definitive information out there, I'd like to hear about it.
I first started looking into this after I picked up my '02. I noticed it felt stiffer than the '01's I had driven so I asked Greg (at J. Ellis) and he said Porsche had made modifications for the MY '02 cars resulting in a chassis that was about 20% stiffer than previous. His information was obtained during one of his trips to the factory. I decided to find confirmation about this from another source, so I e-mailed a good friend who is a Porsche Regional Sales manager. He confirmed the modifications and said it was more like 25% stiffer. He included in his e-mail the quote from the German Product Information book.
I don't have a copy of the Information book, and don't have any other information about the "stiffness" issue. While it may in fact not be true, I have two good sources that say it is true, plus my SOTP informal survey.
If there is more definitive information out there, I'd like to hear about it.
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Dock,
I think we are going the same direction as the last time we had this conversation I simply don’t believe it for the following reasons:
1. I have yet to see a Product Information Guide, for a Turbo, that makes that statement. (I have the one for the Carrera)
2. I have a tendency to not trust sales guys; call me crazy… They are the last people I would look to for "definitive information".
3. I think we can agree that Porsche has a very effective marketing department. If you pick up any of the Porsche magazines, or any other magazines for that matter, related to the 2002 Carrera, the additional stiffness is one of the highlights in the article. I don’t remember reading any article about the 02 Carrera that did not bring up that point. By contrast, I have never read an article, in a Porsche magazine or other, that says the 02 Turbo is stiffer. They all say the new car has Bose, matt black buttons, glove box etc but none mention any additional stiffness. Do you seriously think that Porsche’s marketing machine would not make that a highlight of the 02 onward Turbo reviews if it were true?
I don’t expect you to trust my sources any more than I trust yours. That being said, I was told that during development of the Turbo, Porsche worked on making the chassis stiffer. Those developments took place in 98 and 99 and resulting in many improvements that were added to the standard Carrera in 02. While this make logical sense to me, I don’t have any backup data at this point.
I guess we can agree to disagree on this. I’d love to know one way or another…
Roy
I think we are going the same direction as the last time we had this conversation
I simply don’t believe it for the following reasons:1. I have yet to see a Product Information Guide, for a Turbo, that makes that statement. (I have the one for the Carrera)
2. I have a tendency to not trust sales guys; call me crazy… They are the last people I would look to for "definitive information".
3. I think we can agree that Porsche has a very effective marketing department. If you pick up any of the Porsche magazines, or any other magazines for that matter, related to the 2002 Carrera, the additional stiffness is one of the highlights in the article. I don’t remember reading any article about the 02 Carrera that did not bring up that point. By contrast, I have never read an article, in a Porsche magazine or other, that says the 02 Turbo is stiffer. They all say the new car has Bose, matt black buttons, glove box etc but none mention any additional stiffness. Do you seriously think that Porsche’s marketing machine would not make that a highlight of the 02 onward Turbo reviews if it were true?
I don’t expect you to trust my sources any more than I trust yours. That being said, I was told that during development of the Turbo, Porsche worked on making the chassis stiffer. Those developments took place in 98 and 99 and resulting in many improvements that were added to the standard Carrera in 02. While this make logical sense to me, I don’t have any backup data at this point.
I guess we can agree to disagree on this. I’d love to know one way or another…
Roy
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Roy,
I looked through my Porsche Technology Reference Guide for 2002 (a different publication than the German Product Information book) and here's what it says under "New and/or improved on 911 Carrera Coupe, Cabriolet, C4 Cab, C4S and Targa" ...that the "Body structure and torsional rigidity improved: 25% Coupe, 10% Cabriolet." It also list a lot of other stuff too. Under "New and /or improved on Turbo" it says... "In addition to applicable changes already noted for Carreras are the following:" (and it lists some stuff) . I know the word "applicable" in the statement could be investigated, but there's more data in the "Chassis and Suspension" section.
The "Chassis and Suspension" section of the Guide talks about your point on Porsche working to stiffen the 996 chassis in '98. Here's what it says...
Even though I'd like to know what the real answer is regarding the stiffnes of an '01 versus an '02, in the end it doesn't really matter to me since I love the way my '02 rides now.
If you find out one way or another, please let me know...
I looked through my Porsche Technology Reference Guide for 2002 (a different publication than the German Product Information book) and here's what it says under "New and/or improved on 911 Carrera Coupe, Cabriolet, C4 Cab, C4S and Targa" ...that the "Body structure and torsional rigidity improved: 25% Coupe, 10% Cabriolet." It also list a lot of other stuff too. Under "New and /or improved on Turbo" it says... "In addition to applicable changes already noted for Carreras are the following:" (and it lists some stuff) . I know the word "applicable" in the statement could be investigated, but there's more data in the "Chassis and Suspension" section.
The "Chassis and Suspension" section of the Guide talks about your point on Porsche working to stiffen the 996 chassis in '98. Here's what it says...
"But in the latest 911 and Boxster iterations, advanced computer analyses permit astounding gains in body rigidity - and with a much lower weight. For example, when the 1998 version of the 911 (what Porsche internally calls "996") replaced the "993" (model year 1993-1997), the entire body structure was made some 45 percent stiffer in torsion (resistance to twisting) and an astonishing 50 percent stiffer flexurally (resistance to bending in the middle) than its predecessor. For 2002, Porsche improved the 996 yet some more: a 25 percent increase in torsional rigidity for the Coupe, and 10 percent better in the Carriolet.
If you find out one way or another, please let me know...