Thread of off-topic posts from AZ drag day
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Originally Posted by Craig
Scott,
You know I respect you as much as anyone on this site. You are a car enthusiast through and through. However, in this case, I humbly suggest that you are over-stepping your bounds and your decision making may be clouded by your tuner affiliations.
Todd has stated without qualification that Chinto’s car made 700 fwhp on pump gas, and 740 fwhp on race gas. Todd was present when the car was dynoed, so he should know. In order to reject Todd’s unqualified statement and, instead, post your individual conclusion that Chinto’s car makes 800 fwhp, you are necessarily calling Todd a liar. I submit to you that, before you make such an accusation, you better have more than anecdotal comparisons and conjecture. You better have direct evidence before you proffer such an accusation.
While your anecdotal comparisons are interesting, they are not, IMHO, sufficiently compelling to reject Todd’s unqualified statements regarding Chinto’s hp. Moreover, Todd has presented a cogent explanation for the differences in times between the reference cars you cited, including noteworthy factual distinctions between the various cars and drivers that undermine, or at least weaken, the validity of your anecdotal comparisons. I have not seen any meaningful response to Todd’s explanation of these important distinctions between the cars and drivers.
You have taken it upon yourself to maintain the ¼ mile reference list. I salute you for that. However, recognize that the maintenance of this list has certain important implications. When deciding which tuner package to purchase, members of 6Speed undoubtedly reference your list as an important source of data. Therefore, it is incumbent on you to input and maintain the data without bias or prejudice. You cannot allow your strong affiliation with Protomotive to affect your maintenance of the list, such as by applying greater scrutiny to information supplied by other tuners (frankly, I don’t think anyone with a strong affiliation to a particular tuner should be tasked with the maintenance of this list, but that is water under the bridge). If you obtain direct evidence that someone’s claimed hp is inaccurate, by all means post your direct evidence and adjust the list accordingly. However, in the absence of direct evidence, I think you should refrain from editing the list based upon your own opinions and hypotheses supported only by anecdotal comparisons that are far from conclusive.
If you have direct evidence that Chinto’s car makes more hp than what Todd posted, please share your evidence. Otherwise, notwithstanding your anecdotal hypotheses and comparison driven opinions, I believe you must accept Todd’s unqualified statements as truthful.
Separately, I do not appreciate the unnecessary and pejorative reference to my car.
I was not present when any of the subject cars were dynoed, nor when they made their ÂĽ mile passes, and I have no direct evidence of anything. Nevertheless, I wanted to share my uninformed 2 cents. This is not my fight and I will not post again on the subject. I hope you guys work it out.
Craig
You know I respect you as much as anyone on this site. You are a car enthusiast through and through. However, in this case, I humbly suggest that you are over-stepping your bounds and your decision making may be clouded by your tuner affiliations.
Todd has stated without qualification that Chinto’s car made 700 fwhp on pump gas, and 740 fwhp on race gas. Todd was present when the car was dynoed, so he should know. In order to reject Todd’s unqualified statement and, instead, post your individual conclusion that Chinto’s car makes 800 fwhp, you are necessarily calling Todd a liar. I submit to you that, before you make such an accusation, you better have more than anecdotal comparisons and conjecture. You better have direct evidence before you proffer such an accusation.
While your anecdotal comparisons are interesting, they are not, IMHO, sufficiently compelling to reject Todd’s unqualified statements regarding Chinto’s hp. Moreover, Todd has presented a cogent explanation for the differences in times between the reference cars you cited, including noteworthy factual distinctions between the various cars and drivers that undermine, or at least weaken, the validity of your anecdotal comparisons. I have not seen any meaningful response to Todd’s explanation of these important distinctions between the cars and drivers.
You have taken it upon yourself to maintain the ¼ mile reference list. I salute you for that. However, recognize that the maintenance of this list has certain important implications. When deciding which tuner package to purchase, members of 6Speed undoubtedly reference your list as an important source of data. Therefore, it is incumbent on you to input and maintain the data without bias or prejudice. You cannot allow your strong affiliation with Protomotive to affect your maintenance of the list, such as by applying greater scrutiny to information supplied by other tuners (frankly, I don’t think anyone with a strong affiliation to a particular tuner should be tasked with the maintenance of this list, but that is water under the bridge). If you obtain direct evidence that someone’s claimed hp is inaccurate, by all means post your direct evidence and adjust the list accordingly. However, in the absence of direct evidence, I think you should refrain from editing the list based upon your own opinions and hypotheses supported only by anecdotal comparisons that are far from conclusive.
If you have direct evidence that Chinto’s car makes more hp than what Todd posted, please share your evidence. Otherwise, notwithstanding your anecdotal hypotheses and comparison driven opinions, I believe you must accept Todd’s unqualified statements as truthful.
Separately, I do not appreciate the unnecessary and pejorative reference to my car.
I was not present when any of the subject cars were dynoed, nor when they made their ÂĽ mile passes, and I have no direct evidence of anything. Nevertheless, I wanted to share my uninformed 2 cents. This is not my fight and I will not post again on the subject. I hope you guys work it out.
Craig
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actually, as always, Craig has written an amazing post and it was very easy to understand. One need not be a lawyer, just have a good grasp of the english language and a logical argument.
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First of all, the list is great. It's a time consuming task that you've undertaken Scott, and everyone is thankful that you've taken it upon yourself to maintain it. It's a thankless job (as evidenced here), but a you're being a good sport overall in providing this great service for the members of this community.
However, why have any tuner package referenced at all? At least to me, it is a bit meaningless. What is going to be put up when I put together my own package with parts sourced from a variety of sources? The JIM800 package?
This shouldn't serve as an advertisement, it's a list of fast times. Since when does a car ever remain exactly as it left a tuner, with exactly the same settings and equipment? With a little more boost, or a few tweaks here and there, the seperation between these various tuner stages become blurred indeed.
Does any of it even matter? They run what they run and are listed in descending order. If I *need* to know the particular specs on someones car, I'm going to email them and ask, not rely on some arbitrary and frequently meaningless designation.
IMO, the time should be listed with a "Tuner Affiliation" field and that's it. Of course it's not my list so I have no business telling anyone what to do...
However, why have any tuner package referenced at all? At least to me, it is a bit meaningless. What is going to be put up when I put together my own package with parts sourced from a variety of sources? The JIM800 package?
This shouldn't serve as an advertisement, it's a list of fast times. Since when does a car ever remain exactly as it left a tuner, with exactly the same settings and equipment? With a little more boost, or a few tweaks here and there, the seperation between these various tuner stages become blurred indeed.
Does any of it even matter? They run what they run and are listed in descending order. If I *need* to know the particular specs on someones car, I'm going to email them and ask, not rely on some arbitrary and frequently meaningless designation.
IMO, the time should be listed with a "Tuner Affiliation" field and that's it. Of course it's not my list so I have no business telling anyone what to do...
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Originally Posted by TKDalumni
I like Jim's idea..Just put the tuner affiliation and scratch the package. That's really what this is all about. No one is disputing times, just packages.
This is all for fun I dont think any of this will make any difference.
I can always say that Im full weight but in reality Im at 3000 lbs.
does it matter if I boosted 1.5 bars or 2 bars? no not really....
Everyone will do what they have to to do better times... from weight reduction to running 17" rims with drag radials to running more boost...
I know I have done two of the 3 above mentioned.
For those of us who want to post our times/info we obviously have a some innate interest in doing the best that we can. I heard that this car runs more boost then normal and I also heard that that car is totally stripped without sway bars... so what... do what what you have to do....I know I am... no secret there.
markski
I can always say that Im full weight but in reality Im at 3000 lbs.
does it matter if I boosted 1.5 bars or 2 bars? no not really....
Everyone will do what they have to to do better times... from weight reduction to running 17" rims with drag radials to running more boost...
I know I have done two of the 3 above mentioned.
For those of us who want to post our times/info we obviously have a some innate interest in doing the best that we can. I heard that this car runs more boost then normal and I also heard that that car is totally stripped without sway bars... so what... do what what you have to do....I know I am... no secret there.
markski
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2001 996TT 3.6L and stock ECU
9.66 seconds @ 147.76 mph 1/4 mile click to view
160 mph @ 9.77 seconds in 1/4 mile click to view
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2001 996TT 3.6L and stock ECU
9.66 seconds @ 147.76 mph 1/4 mile click to view
160 mph @ 9.77 seconds in 1/4 mile click to view
50% OFF ON PORSCHE ECU TUNING BLACK FRIDAY SPECIAL
Last edited by markski@markskituning; Mar 5, 2007 at 01:43 PM.
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I am glad you guys had fun at the event and sorry to hear some may have had problems; if they did. As far as the list and the way in general P car owners/tuners in general lable the kits as 600, 700, 800, etc is IMHO just a guide. Cars as we all know as well as weather, dyno's , drivers, tracks, are all different. Thus we get, as should be expected different results with quote the "SAME" hp kits. It seems to me the simple thing to do would be to list the car, owner, tuner, actual HP, dyno type, conditions, and times. But in the end a drag race, road course, or foot race will eventually come down to the PERSON behind the wheel or in the shoes. Can't we all just have some FUN?
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Originally Posted by rwm514
Good idea. Maybe a link could follow the tuner affiliation for more exact details of the cars build which is written by the cars owner. That way if someone was interested they could get all the info.
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Originally Posted by Craig
Scott,
You know I respect you as much as anyone on this site. You are a car enthusiast through and through. However, in this case, I humbly suggest that you are over-stepping your bounds and your decision making may be clouded by your tuner affiliations.
Todd has stated without qualification that Chinto’s car made 700 fwhp on pump gas, and 740 fwhp on race gas. Todd was present when the car was dynoed, so he should know. In order to reject Todd’s unqualified statement and, instead, post your individual conclusion that Chinto’s car makes 800 fwhp, you are necessarily calling Todd a liar. I submit to you that, before you make such an accusation, you better have more than anecdotal comparisons and conjecture. You better have direct evidence before you proffer such an accusation.
While your anecdotal comparisons are interesting, they are not, IMHO, sufficiently compelling to reject Todd’s unqualified statements regarding Chinto’s hp. Moreover, Todd has presented a cogent explanation for the differences in times between the reference cars you cited, including noteworthy factual distinctions between the various cars and drivers that undermine, or at least weaken, the validity of your anecdotal comparisons. I have not seen any meaningful response to Todd’s explanation of these important distinctions between the cars and drivers.
You know I respect you as much as anyone on this site. You are a car enthusiast through and through. However, in this case, I humbly suggest that you are over-stepping your bounds and your decision making may be clouded by your tuner affiliations.
Todd has stated without qualification that Chinto’s car made 700 fwhp on pump gas, and 740 fwhp on race gas. Todd was present when the car was dynoed, so he should know. In order to reject Todd’s unqualified statement and, instead, post your individual conclusion that Chinto’s car makes 800 fwhp, you are necessarily calling Todd a liar. I submit to you that, before you make such an accusation, you better have more than anecdotal comparisons and conjecture. You better have direct evidence before you proffer such an accusation.
While your anecdotal comparisons are interesting, they are not, IMHO, sufficiently compelling to reject Todd’s unqualified statements regarding Chinto’s hp. Moreover, Todd has presented a cogent explanation for the differences in times between the reference cars you cited, including noteworthy factual distinctions between the various cars and drivers that undermine, or at least weaken, the validity of your anecdotal comparisons. I have not seen any meaningful response to Todd’s explanation of these important distinctions between the cars and drivers.
You want to know why I question the numbers, Craig? Fine. I will forward you some PM's that will explain my reasoning.
I really *hate* even bringing PM's into this...but now I'm starting to look like the bad guy with some sort of an agenda...which is BS. Point is, I feel I've been lied to before about how much actual power a GT700 car was making, so excuse me if I'm not ready to fall for it again.
Originally Posted by Craig
You have taken it upon yourself to maintain the ÂĽ mile reference list. I salute you for that. However, recognize that the maintenance of this list has certain important implications. When deciding which tuner package to purchase, members of 6Speed undoubtedly reference your list as an important source of data. Therefore, it is incumbent on you to input and maintain the data without bias or prejudice.
It's almost funny. I'm trying to keep things as honest as possible, yet some people want to hang me for doing so.
Originally Posted by Craig
You cannot allow your strong affiliation with Protomotive to affect your maintenance of the list, such as by applying greater scrutiny to information supplied by other tuners (frankly, I don’t think anyone with a strong affiliation to a particular tuner should be tasked with the maintenance of this list, but that is water under the bridge).
The fact is; I haven't seen any other tuner provide HP numbers that don't match their 1/4 mile times. That includes Imagine Auto, SG, RUF, S Car Go, Proto, UMW, FVD...you name it. If any of those tuners did the same thing, I would instantly be all over them.
Originally Posted by Craig
If you obtain direct evidence that someone’s claimed hp is inaccurate, by all means post your direct evidence and adjust the list accordingly. However, in the absence of direct evidence, I think you should refrain from editing the list based upon your own opinions and hypotheses supported only by anecdotal comparisons that are far from conclusive.
Originally Posted by Craig
If you have direct evidence that Chinto’s car makes more hp than what Todd posted, please share your evidence. Otherwise, notwithstanding your anecdotal hypotheses and comparison driven opinions, I believe you must accept Todd’s unqualified statements as truthful.
Do you really expect me to ignore these facts?
Originally Posted by Craig
Separately, I do not appreciate the unnecessary and pejorative reference to my car.
Originally Posted by Craig
I was not present when any of the subject cars were dynoed, nor when they made their ÂĽ mile passes, and I have no direct evidence of anything. Nevertheless, I wanted to share my uninformed 2 cents. This is not my fight and I will not post again on the subject. I hope you guys work it out.
I greatly respect you, Craig, and like you just the same. So it's unbelievably frustrating that you of all people can't see where I'm coming from right now.
Last edited by Divexxtreme; Mar 5, 2007 at 08:33 PM.
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Originally Posted by TKDalumni
I like Jim's idea..Just put the tuner affiliation and scratch the package. That's really what this is all about. No one is disputing times, just packages.
If I wipe all tuner info off, as well as HP claims..and leave it just 1/4 mile times, that might be the only way to prevent problems.
Right now I'm attempting to perform a very frustrating balancing act. I'm trying to post as accurate information as humanly possible, which inevitably ends up pissing some people off. And no matter my intent, I look like the *******.
If I just post the times...no one can *****.
Great idea, Jim.
Last edited by Divexxtreme; Mar 5, 2007 at 03:08 PM.
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Scott I can see your points as well as Joe's points. The problem is this thread has gone from being really fun and talking about a great day at the drags to a pissing match. Maybe you can post a different thread that can argue about Chinto's car and what his horsepower is but it sure has changed this thread and taken alot of the fun out of it?
Just my thoughts I wish we could all get along because we are all trying to reach the same targets.
Just my thoughts I wish we could all get along because we are all trying to reach the same targets.
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pissing match.
Originally Posted by buddyg
Scott I can see your points as well as Joe's points. The problem is this thread has gone from being really fun and talking about a great day at the drags to a pissing match. Maybe you can post a different thread that can argue about Chinto's car and what his horsepower is but it sure has changed this thread and taken alot of the fun out of it?
Just my thoughts I wish we could all get along because we are all trying to reach the same targets.
Just my thoughts I wish we could all get along because we are all trying to reach the same targets.
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Okay..all tuner info and HP claims have been removed from the 1/4 mile list. All that remains is username, 1/4 mile time, 1/4 mile trap, 60-130 time, and whether the car was AWD or RWD at the time of the run.
Last edited by Divexxtreme; Mar 5, 2007 at 02:33 PM.
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Scott
You are doing a very unrewarding job trying to give all of this some sense. Great work, do not be demotivated or frustrated. I guess at the end of the day it is each one's conscience. Keep it up.
You are doing a very unrewarding job trying to give all of this some sense. Great work, do not be demotivated or frustrated. I guess at the end of the day it is each one's conscience. Keep it up.