The ultimate IMS UPGRADE
#1
09-16-2010, 04:23 PM
The ultimate IMS UPGRADE
Hi guys: :thumbup:
I'm anxious to tell you one of teh most important revolution we can get to make our M96 engines eternal. Forget the IMS issue. All of us know that there are some ways to reinforce the IMS, but any of them are like this: the ultimate solution to prevent a total engine failure due to a IMS issue.
In our spanish spoken forum, Soloporsche.com , we're very proud to have a really Porsche expert engineer who developed this fantastic and awesome idea. Our friend Rober, has designed a real solution:
Double bearing, large bearing support, reinforced external piece, specific compound material seals (triple advanced seal solution to avoid oil leaks)....
An hybrid ceramic compound bearing was used to achive a high endurance life
3 years warranty, excellent h.q. materials, but ......
... imagine that It could fail... the bearing could fail... what happens to the engine...????
Don't cry!!!! :nono: There is a second special bearing to work as an engine lifeguard
What do you think guys?
IMPORTANT: I don't sell anything. I don't have any commercial interest in this kit. I only want to share with you one the best advanced solutions for our engines.
I'm anxious to tell you one of teh most important revolution we can get to make our M96 engines eternal. Forget the IMS issue. All of us know that there are some ways to reinforce the IMS, but any of them are like this: the ultimate solution to prevent a total engine failure due to a IMS issue.
In our spanish spoken forum, Soloporsche.com , we're very proud to have a really Porsche expert engineer who developed this fantastic and awesome idea. Our friend Rober, has designed a real solution:
Double bearing, large bearing support, reinforced external piece, specific compound material seals (triple advanced seal solution to avoid oil leaks)....
An hybrid ceramic compound bearing was used to achive a high endurance life
3 years warranty, excellent h.q. materials, but ......
... imagine that It could fail... the bearing could fail... what happens to the engine...????
Don't cry!!!! :nono: There is a second special bearing to work as an engine lifeguard
What do you think guys?
IMPORTANT: I don't sell anything. I don't have any commercial interest in this kit. I only want to share with you one the best advanced solutions for our engines.
Last edited by GT3 Chuck; 09-17-2010 at 12:15 AM. Reason: information is fine...promotion is another matter and one copyright image
#2
09-16-2010, 04:39 PM
Okay, I'll ask the stupid question since I am a noob and don't understand any of this too much yet.
Is this an alternative to what LN Engineering offers or is this a completely new design that is even better then what LN Engineering is offering?
Is this an alternative to what LN Engineering offers or is this a completely new design that is even better then what LN Engineering is offering?
#3
09-16-2010, 04:47 PM
I respect what L&N did, but both bearings could fail someday (L&N and INSARO). I don't think so
But Insaro has a new element to preserve the engine.
Better materials, better desing, 3 specific "Viton" seals, ... there's a huge difference.
It's not only a reinforcement...It's a definitive solution
#5
09-16-2010, 06:48 PM
I have the L&N IMS
I like the idea behind this. It would be interesting to see how it does over time. The second safety bearing appears to have small metal ball bearings and the two allen screws. Do these fit inside the IMS shaft? If the safety bearing fails does it stay inside the shaft? I do like the over sized nature of it. When I saw the stock IMS I was stunned at how little metal there was supporting an integral structural unit.
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#9
09-17-2010, 03:17 PM
There is a bearing extracting tool too
#10
09-17-2010, 03:19 PM
I like the idea behind this. It would be interesting to see how it does over time. The second safety bearing appears to have small metal ball bearings and the two allen screws.
Do these fit inside the IMS shaft? If the safety bearing fails does it stay inside the shaft? I do like the over sized nature of it. When I saw the stock IMS I was stunned at how little metal there was supporting an integral structural unit.
Do these fit inside the IMS shaft? If the safety bearing fails does it stay inside the shaft? I do like the over sized nature of it. When I saw the stock IMS I was stunned at how little metal there was supporting an integral structural unit.
I'll try to give this questions to Rober (the engineer), and he will offer the correct information to resolve the questions
#11
09-19-2010, 07:39 AM
As I couldn't answer any of the technical questions, here I copy/paste an extended explanation that Rober (Insaro) posted in other forum to response other IMS upgrade Kit manufacturer:
First of all good evening- and calmness. Here we're to be able to discuss about a problem solution. In the following paragraphs I'll try to explain all the doubts you would have concerning to Insaro reinforcement Kits.
Regarding to M96 engine knowledge, I'm sensible to know that there will be lots of people with a great experience in this particular issue, for instance yourself Jake. A few of us have learnt thanks to your threads and experience.
I have a huge experience on the field of design, finite elements analysis, tridimensional model generating, and big machines, robotized systems research and developing in the field of iron and steel sector, that means is a good platform. I hope you could believe me Jake, 'cause there are very complex systems with efforts and working atmosphere, with a huge difficult component more than a M96 engine could never arise. I could tell you lots of them but, as an example I can show you this robot (by the way is working in your country):
I'm a person who is used to place myself in an engine, a processing equipment industrial plant, an industrial oven, etc, trying to study and develop solutions to improve, upgrade at this point. This is my speciality, where I hit on the nail: to anylize and improve the quality of elements. That's why though I'm not an specific specialist on M96 engines, that question is not relevant to disqualify me, to be ready to offer my little contribution to Porsche world (I hope you don't worry about it Jake). I can assure from my deep heart that my only purpose is always to grow, and evolve over a problem root.
The main question is that Porsche enthusiastics could know the product, its improvements, and after that they could choose. It would be a great benefit for this community to have several choices.
Once I cleared these things, we can go to directly to study the piece. I like simplify ideas, 'cause It is the best way to interpret a problem solution
Porsche has a design problem at present, ok. You make an analysis and contribute to solve the problem, generating a mechanized piece over a melting piece design. Then you add it to an hybrid bearing. The improvent is good, but I don't consider it as a solution. I hope this argument wouldn't disturb you Jake. I say it with all repects to you.
To solve the problem is the same as erase the problem. I always think that anything is forever, anything will work as eternal, so in the likelyhood of an hybrid bearing failure... what could happen? I know It's too difficult but not impossible.
At this point we place a first step: to look for a problem solution which means that if the IMS fails the engine could be intact, 'alive'.
If the main bearing fails, we have another point to lean the IM shaft on. The principal aim is avoid the shatf taking down, and keep the chains on. But the most important is that the driver could realize the problem.
Inside the piece, we looked for a new design completely new and never similar to Porsche OEM one. We consider that It's a wrong design, so if you continue making something similar we'll finally fall down at the same point: a total disaster. We begin with a holder piece 3 times increased than the original one. So we can assure that It is holding the IMS more efficiently, and with less posibility to generate vibrations in its spinning work.
Besides, we reinforce the piece in a better steel alloy. Remember that Porsche's bearing support is melted, and if you want to increase this stiffness, you'll need to begin with a more structural steady piece designed, with less arris, and stronger to take the new generated efforts
We go for a 20 mm bearing support, instead of the 6-8 mm current, where the bearing is perfectly placed and supported and not a 57% as you can check in the current market pieces. As you said It's very important to make a deep study of a system which is supporting a bearing, especially when It's generating a pile of working frequencies. We humans are placed over two feet, 100% of support. If we'd lift a leg, then we'll be placed in a single foot, just 50% of support.. Currently, Porsche's bearing and yours are placed and supported only in a 57%. The rest is placed in a traction working shaft, with a 5% gap/hence/fedge So the result is that more than half bearing is suported in a non steady surface. This is not only my own appreciation, you can check it here:
IMHO this is an error, a serious error, to support a bearing in a mix way. It generate stabilty lack, a terrible lack of support just in the point where radial forces are being generated
Talking about lubrication, I must say that the main bearing is being lubricated by engine oil, obviously It is mounted without side covers.
The second bearing receives lubrication at the same time with engine oil with the centrifuge effect generated by the IMS spinning.
At present, there are no bearings which could suffer a failure being stopped and lubricated. Concerning to a probably main bearing failure and a working task for the secondary, the generated gap between the bearing and the internal shaft was calculated to produce a little alternative strain in the chains. That was thought to alert both hall sensors and produce an 'check engine light in your dashboard.
We did several studies checking different phase angles in the sensors, with different strain chains to analize where is the margin of fine working before offer error in the Motronic unit. We know very well the electronics as we are specialist in remapping since 1989. In this case we designed it to produce a little pitching in the bearing support and alert the driver that something wrong is happening.
Another important thing: this kit could save your life. Imagine thta you're driving in a sharp bend road and you decide to make a passing maneuver. Imagine that at this point, you suffer a IMS failure... Imagine that a truck comes to you ... but and you calculated the distance with your superb Porsche... you could die without power. Insaro don't leave you without power. You could continue driving without any problem and accelerating te same as before. Think about it...
As you well know, Porsche's Variocam system works with twim signals.
A hall pushing time failure, will give you Check Engine Light, to alert you that the engine is failing, and in the likelyhood of a main bearing failure, the second bearing will produce a Christmas tree in the dash to prevent you that something wrong goes, and stop the engine.
The secondary bearing doesn't have the aim to last the whole life, nor lasting 1000 working hours. Its aim is avoid the IMS to take down producing a total disaster . This a contribution to solve the problem as we understand under our point of view Concerning to the doubts about the second bearing, I'll do a comparison to Porsche OEM bearing.
Porsche OEM bearing, as we know could make a good amount of miles but after that, and due to several things, finally could fail. Well, I'm going to show you Porsche OEM bearing endurance data, and after that our Insaro secondary bearing endurance data.
As you can see, besides being better than Porsche's one in all load capabilities, we include something very important: our secondary bearing can hold axis loads, and ***** bearings mounted as main bearing do not.
Porsche OEM bearing Vs INSARO secondary bearing
I have no problem to show you original data from Manufacturer website if you don't believe any data posted here. They are joined in a table to appreciate directly and clear that Insaro's bearing exceeds more than 3 times lots of endurance aspects of Porsche's one. There's no way to doubt about its endurance.
These data made me think the following: If Porsche's bearing is able to last till 10 years working, Insaro's one will be capable to last 5 minutes working till you'd find a clear zone to stop your car and toe to your car to your mechanic. You'll get your car saved. The only thing would be to install a new piece, new oil, an so on, always better than a new engine. That's the target.
Besides we increased for 3 times the sealing capabilities. As you know your car could suffer IMS oil leaks. Our Insaro piece has 3 special Viton seals which make it impossible to leak.
Jake, we have so much safety and confidence in our product that is protected with an international patent and registered for the main markets in USA, Europe, Africa, Oceania, etc
We are so confident in our kits that we offer 3 year warranty. Not more we can add about safety in our job.
I don't like to critizice in an aggresive way any aspect of your design, and in fact, I could do it, but I'll just try to explain you INSARO qualities. It's better to show Porsche world all the positive things of the market kits and better to get in a primary school argue.
Concerning to the endurance, all the pieces were re-designed and we added all the improvements of steel compounds, thermal treatments, and they don't look similar in any aspect to Porsche OEM or LN design. By the way, the pusher tool is very similar to yours, jake, but you know there's nothing special to design a simple cylinder to place a bearing in.
Here you can see several videos comparing both pieces. I'd like to know where you can see any estructural weakness
I can assure you that if we begin talking about Porsche estrutural weakness, we'll need a lot of time for it
For me it`s very clear, this kit is not a copy, is a new development at 100%.Talking about prices is relative. Here is a contribution where you can see a problem completely solved. There is a NEW design, new improvements in avoiding oil leaks (triple protection seals), high quality materials, high quality bearings, and what's more: a problem solved. So, do you really can meassure how much the product cost?
Charles & Jake, I do all this work since the most repectable attitude to your company and your preventive solutions. I respect your brilliant career, and I expect that you could understand my words and explanations.
What I did is nothing similar to yours. It's other point of view looking for a definitive solution and I must say that there is an important difference between both products. There are no simitudes.
Kind regards
Roberto R.
INSARO Proyect Manager.
I hope you would understand the way that this kit works
I don't have any relatioship with Insaro company.
First of all good evening- and calmness. Here we're to be able to discuss about a problem solution. In the following paragraphs I'll try to explain all the doubts you would have concerning to Insaro reinforcement Kits.
Regarding to M96 engine knowledge, I'm sensible to know that there will be lots of people with a great experience in this particular issue, for instance yourself Jake. A few of us have learnt thanks to your threads and experience.
I have a huge experience on the field of design, finite elements analysis, tridimensional model generating, and big machines, robotized systems research and developing in the field of iron and steel sector, that means is a good platform. I hope you could believe me Jake, 'cause there are very complex systems with efforts and working atmosphere, with a huge difficult component more than a M96 engine could never arise. I could tell you lots of them but, as an example I can show you this robot (by the way is working in your country):
I'm a person who is used to place myself in an engine, a processing equipment industrial plant, an industrial oven, etc, trying to study and develop solutions to improve, upgrade at this point. This is my speciality, where I hit on the nail: to anylize and improve the quality of elements. That's why though I'm not an specific specialist on M96 engines, that question is not relevant to disqualify me, to be ready to offer my little contribution to Porsche world (I hope you don't worry about it Jake). I can assure from my deep heart that my only purpose is always to grow, and evolve over a problem root.
The main question is that Porsche enthusiastics could know the product, its improvements, and after that they could choose. It would be a great benefit for this community to have several choices.
Once I cleared these things, we can go to directly to study the piece. I like simplify ideas, 'cause It is the best way to interpret a problem solution
Porsche has a design problem at present, ok. You make an analysis and contribute to solve the problem, generating a mechanized piece over a melting piece design. Then you add it to an hybrid bearing. The improvent is good, but I don't consider it as a solution. I hope this argument wouldn't disturb you Jake. I say it with all repects to you.
To solve the problem is the same as erase the problem. I always think that anything is forever, anything will work as eternal, so in the likelyhood of an hybrid bearing failure... what could happen? I know It's too difficult but not impossible.
At this point we place a first step: to look for a problem solution which means that if the IMS fails the engine could be intact, 'alive'.
If the main bearing fails, we have another point to lean the IM shaft on. The principal aim is avoid the shatf taking down, and keep the chains on. But the most important is that the driver could realize the problem.
Inside the piece, we looked for a new design completely new and never similar to Porsche OEM one. We consider that It's a wrong design, so if you continue making something similar we'll finally fall down at the same point: a total disaster. We begin with a holder piece 3 times increased than the original one. So we can assure that It is holding the IMS more efficiently, and with less posibility to generate vibrations in its spinning work.
Besides, we reinforce the piece in a better steel alloy. Remember that Porsche's bearing support is melted, and if you want to increase this stiffness, you'll need to begin with a more structural steady piece designed, with less arris, and stronger to take the new generated efforts
We go for a 20 mm bearing support, instead of the 6-8 mm current, where the bearing is perfectly placed and supported and not a 57% as you can check in the current market pieces. As you said It's very important to make a deep study of a system which is supporting a bearing, especially when It's generating a pile of working frequencies. We humans are placed over two feet, 100% of support. If we'd lift a leg, then we'll be placed in a single foot, just 50% of support.. Currently, Porsche's bearing and yours are placed and supported only in a 57%. The rest is placed in a traction working shaft, with a 5% gap/hence/fedge So the result is that more than half bearing is suported in a non steady surface. This is not only my own appreciation, you can check it here:
IMHO this is an error, a serious error, to support a bearing in a mix way. It generate stabilty lack, a terrible lack of support just in the point where radial forces are being generated
Talking about lubrication, I must say that the main bearing is being lubricated by engine oil, obviously It is mounted without side covers.
The second bearing receives lubrication at the same time with engine oil with the centrifuge effect generated by the IMS spinning.
At present, there are no bearings which could suffer a failure being stopped and lubricated. Concerning to a probably main bearing failure and a working task for the secondary, the generated gap between the bearing and the internal shaft was calculated to produce a little alternative strain in the chains. That was thought to alert both hall sensors and produce an 'check engine light in your dashboard.
We did several studies checking different phase angles in the sensors, with different strain chains to analize where is the margin of fine working before offer error in the Motronic unit. We know very well the electronics as we are specialist in remapping since 1989. In this case we designed it to produce a little pitching in the bearing support and alert the driver that something wrong is happening.
Another important thing: this kit could save your life. Imagine thta you're driving in a sharp bend road and you decide to make a passing maneuver. Imagine that at this point, you suffer a IMS failure... Imagine that a truck comes to you ... but and you calculated the distance with your superb Porsche... you could die without power. Insaro don't leave you without power. You could continue driving without any problem and accelerating te same as before. Think about it...
As you well know, Porsche's Variocam system works with twim signals.
A hall pushing time failure, will give you Check Engine Light, to alert you that the engine is failing, and in the likelyhood of a main bearing failure, the second bearing will produce a Christmas tree in the dash to prevent you that something wrong goes, and stop the engine.
The secondary bearing doesn't have the aim to last the whole life, nor lasting 1000 working hours. Its aim is avoid the IMS to take down producing a total disaster . This a contribution to solve the problem as we understand under our point of view Concerning to the doubts about the second bearing, I'll do a comparison to Porsche OEM bearing.
Porsche OEM bearing, as we know could make a good amount of miles but after that, and due to several things, finally could fail. Well, I'm going to show you Porsche OEM bearing endurance data, and after that our Insaro secondary bearing endurance data.
As you can see, besides being better than Porsche's one in all load capabilities, we include something very important: our secondary bearing can hold axis loads, and ***** bearings mounted as main bearing do not.
Porsche OEM bearing Vs INSARO secondary bearing
I have no problem to show you original data from Manufacturer website if you don't believe any data posted here. They are joined in a table to appreciate directly and clear that Insaro's bearing exceeds more than 3 times lots of endurance aspects of Porsche's one. There's no way to doubt about its endurance.
These data made me think the following: If Porsche's bearing is able to last till 10 years working, Insaro's one will be capable to last 5 minutes working till you'd find a clear zone to stop your car and toe to your car to your mechanic. You'll get your car saved. The only thing would be to install a new piece, new oil, an so on, always better than a new engine. That's the target.
Besides we increased for 3 times the sealing capabilities. As you know your car could suffer IMS oil leaks. Our Insaro piece has 3 special Viton seals which make it impossible to leak.
Jake, we have so much safety and confidence in our product that is protected with an international patent and registered for the main markets in USA, Europe, Africa, Oceania, etc
We are so confident in our kits that we offer 3 year warranty. Not more we can add about safety in our job.
I don't like to critizice in an aggresive way any aspect of your design, and in fact, I could do it, but I'll just try to explain you INSARO qualities. It's better to show Porsche world all the positive things of the market kits and better to get in a primary school argue.
Concerning to the endurance, all the pieces were re-designed and we added all the improvements of steel compounds, thermal treatments, and they don't look similar in any aspect to Porsche OEM or LN design. By the way, the pusher tool is very similar to yours, jake, but you know there's nothing special to design a simple cylinder to place a bearing in.
Here you can see several videos comparing both pieces. I'd like to know where you can see any estructural weakness
I can assure you that if we begin talking about Porsche estrutural weakness, we'll need a lot of time for it
INSARO Vs Porsche
INSARO Shaft Vs Porsche Shaft
For me it`s very clear, this kit is not a copy, is a new development at 100%.Talking about prices is relative. Here is a contribution where you can see a problem completely solved. There is a NEW design, new improvements in avoiding oil leaks (triple protection seals), high quality materials, high quality bearings, and what's more: a problem solved. So, do you really can meassure how much the product cost?
Charles & Jake, I do all this work since the most repectable attitude to your company and your preventive solutions. I respect your brilliant career, and I expect that you could understand my words and explanations.
What I did is nothing similar to yours. It's other point of view looking for a definitive solution and I must say that there is an important difference between both products. There are no simitudes.
Kind regards
Roberto R.
INSARO Proyect Manager.
I hope you would understand the way that this kit works
I don't have any relatioship with Insaro company.
#12
09-19-2010, 09:49 AM
http://www.insaroims.com/pedidos.php
Cheap compared to a new motor... pricey compared to LN's product.
Pretty interesting product, but I'm a financial guy and this is over my head. Looking forward to some of our 'resident engineers' to chime in...
#13
09-19-2010, 09:55 AM
http://www.insaroims.com/pedidos.php
Cheap compared to a new motor... pricey compared to LN's product.
Pretty interesting product, but I'm a financial guy and this is over my head. Looking forward to some of our 'resident engineers' to chime in...
Cheap compared to a new motor... pricey compared to LN's product.
Pretty interesting product, but I'm a financial guy and this is over my head. Looking forward to some of our 'resident engineers' to chime in...
LN's product is preventive. Good idea, and a good reinforcement
Insaro's Kit is a definitive solution
They are two very different alternatives, but not the only two. Autofarm is another way
Insaro's solution is worldwide patented and registered
#15
09-19-2010, 01:35 PM
Very interesting. Any idea how many cars have been retrofitted to date?
Dealing with the IMS bearing is on my winter to-do list (with clutch et al). I like the idea of a permanent solution vs. preventative maintenance piece, but I'm not sure I want to be an early adopter here.
Also, the warranty - what exactly does it cover? If the engine blows up as a result of the bearing, will they replace the engine - or just the bearing?
(there are days when I sure do wish I learned Spanish instead of French)
Dealing with the IMS bearing is on my winter to-do list (with clutch et al). I like the idea of a permanent solution vs. preventative maintenance piece, but I'm not sure I want to be an early adopter here.
Also, the warranty - what exactly does it cover? If the engine blows up as a result of the bearing, will they replace the engine - or just the bearing?
(there are days when I sure do wish I learned Spanish instead of French)
