Potential 996 owner. Need guideance.
#1
07-06-2017, 03:37 AM
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: St. Louis
Age: 34
Posts: 1
Rep Power: 0 
Potential 996 owner. Need guideance.
Hello,
Just as the tittle says I've been looking into the 996 as my next weekend warrior. First off before I get flamed I've been reading for the last two days about the car and already learned about some issues like the IMS Bearing.
My story: Been looking for a while to get into a 15k to 20k used sports car. I've looked into S2000, 370z, Nissan Skyline R32 GTR and last but not least BMW E46 M3. So far I had disqualified the R32 (difficult to find and too much $) and the E46 M3 (need to be on top of them, finicky electronics, expensive parts, very vulnerable to frame cracks, ****ty variable valve system, overall doesn't seem like a very solid car compared to the Japanese). The reason why I say all this is to put in perspective my goals. Pretty much I want an iconic, reliable sports cars that is not going to break my bank on repairs. I'm a DYI and I have plenty experience working on cars, whatever I don't know how to do I always go online and learn how to do it. My major limitations now would be tooling. I'm ready to do maintenance and small repairs but nothing crazy like pulling transmission or the engine off.
My findings about 996 (correct me if I'm wrong)
-Parts are widely available and not that expensive since it shares lots of parts with the Boxter
- This is the easiest Porsche 911 to work on yourself.
-Maintenance are easy and nothing extraordinarily expensive
- IMS failure is a common issue.
- +2002 gets HID xenon headlights like the GT models
- For some reason many Porsche fans think this generation is ugly but for me its actually the most iconic one. ( I remember my childhood doctor had a yellow Turbo. I was about 10yrs old back in 2000)
Per my budget and learning so far I'm focused on a 2002-2003 Carrera, Carrera 4 or Carrera 4S, Targa or Coupe. Manual trans. I like the 2002 headlights better and I never really liked convertibles plus I don't want to run risk of having leaks
Anyway my question are:
Can this car be as reliable, ease of maintenance, cost of repairs assuming DYI type of labor when compared to the Japanese options?
Can this IMS issue be prevented, is it really not that difficult and relatively inexpensive to fix as I been told?
What year model 996 has tendency to be more reliable?
Are the AWD (4 and 4S) model more complicated to work on or unreliable? Is the AWD worth it?
Any other issued I should know about? Please I can use as much info as I can get.
Just as the tittle says I've been looking into the 996 as my next weekend warrior. First off before I get flamed I've been reading for the last two days about the car and already learned about some issues like the IMS Bearing.
My story: Been looking for a while to get into a 15k to 20k used sports car. I've looked into S2000, 370z, Nissan Skyline R32 GTR and last but not least BMW E46 M3. So far I had disqualified the R32 (difficult to find and too much $) and the E46 M3 (need to be on top of them, finicky electronics, expensive parts, very vulnerable to frame cracks, ****ty variable valve system, overall doesn't seem like a very solid car compared to the Japanese). The reason why I say all this is to put in perspective my goals. Pretty much I want an iconic, reliable sports cars that is not going to break my bank on repairs. I'm a DYI and I have plenty experience working on cars, whatever I don't know how to do I always go online and learn how to do it. My major limitations now would be tooling. I'm ready to do maintenance and small repairs but nothing crazy like pulling transmission or the engine off.
My findings about 996 (correct me if I'm wrong)
-Parts are widely available and not that expensive since it shares lots of parts with the Boxter
- This is the easiest Porsche 911 to work on yourself.
-Maintenance are easy and nothing extraordinarily expensive
- IMS failure is a common issue.
- +2002 gets HID xenon headlights like the GT models
- For some reason many Porsche fans think this generation is ugly but for me its actually the most iconic one. ( I remember my childhood doctor had a yellow Turbo. I was about 10yrs old back in 2000)
Per my budget and learning so far I'm focused on a 2002-2003 Carrera, Carrera 4 or Carrera 4S, Targa or Coupe. Manual trans. I like the 2002 headlights better and I never really liked convertibles plus I don't want to run risk of having leaks
Anyway my question are:
Can this car be as reliable, ease of maintenance, cost of repairs assuming DYI type of labor when compared to the Japanese options?
Can this IMS issue be prevented, is it really not that difficult and relatively inexpensive to fix as I been told?
What year model 996 has tendency to be more reliable?
Are the AWD (4 and 4S) model more complicated to work on or unreliable? Is the AWD worth it?
Any other issued I should know about? Please I can use as much info as I can get.
Last edited by wiloz32; 07-06-2017 at 03:41 AM.
#2
07-06-2017, 10:00 AM
I have owned all those other cars you mentioned including the r32 GTR, and currently have a 996 C2 as my track toy, and have had several others. First off the IMS failure is not that common, I have met hundreds of M96/M97 owners at PCA events and track days yet I have only talked to 1 owner ever who had an actual IMS failure. Not to say it does not happen, when it does these forums usually blow up about it, and you can do the LN engineering fix. Other then that 996s are very simple cars compared to the others, so there is not much complicated stuff that can go wrong, and because of that they are fairly reliable.
Is the AWD worth the extra money, for me. no. I am not going to drive it in rain or snow, so I don't really need AWD.
Is the AWD worth the extra money, for me. no. I am not going to drive it in rain or snow, so I don't really need AWD.
#3
07-07-2017, 01:26 PM
I'm only a couple years older than you, and just purchased a 2003 C4S, my second porsche after a boxster S 986.
This is what I'd tell you: Decide what you want to do with the car.
Do you want to track it semi seriously? Buy a 1999 C2 coupe. It the only model that doesn't need an ims replacement (1999s had a proper dual row ims bearing, and the failure rate is below 0.05%). Other than automatics and cabs its the cheapest model. Most importantly its the lightest model. I wish I had done this instead of my expensive *** C4S
Do you want to have fun with friends and drive girls around with a fun second car? Nothing wrong with that. Get a 996.2 cab, especially 4S cab because of that widebooty. I also wish I had done this, but a 996.2 C2 cab would be sweet too. The only problem here is you cant track the car unless it's a sanctioned pca event. Cabs make every drive a bit of an event. They are also more practical because with the top down you can actually hold 4 people. I am a huge fan of cabs after my boxster. I kind of miss the little guy.
You will go through lots of tires. You will need to replace your front struts no matter what. Everything will cost you a lot more money than and other VAG car, but it isn't necessarily prohibitive. I would recommend not buying one until you can buy it, cash. You will immediately want to spend 5-6 k on repairs and upgrades and tires/wheels, helmets, trackdays, PCA events, SCCA events. This is extremely annoying to do if you're just making a payment on a loan and budgeting for the rest (ask me how I know).
I know you wont listen to this, but listen to it anyways. Also, consider a Z4 M or 06-08 Cayman S. They will be the same price but newer, and need less attention. If you only have $15k cash, consider buying an e46 M3, they are faster than **** and a lot cheaper. Feel free to PM me, I don't come on here a ton if you have other questions.
Also, I forgot to address this, but the AWD system on 996s and 997.1s is useless. Go youtube any videos of the cars driving in the snow. The front wheels wont even turn. Adding it to the car adds 80lbs, takes away 12whp and 10 wft/lbs. Thats why I removed mine. I put my car on 4 jack stands and started it up and al the wheels turned, GREAT! until i realized I could stop the fronts with pressure from my hands, because very little torque actually transfers. I would definitely not hesitate to buy an awd one, just don't consider it an advantage. I'm sorry to break it to everyone, but the viscous coupling is a dubious solution in real world settings and temperatures, and it doesn't really transfer torque, especially after 16 years.
This is what I'd tell you: Decide what you want to do with the car.
Do you want to track it semi seriously? Buy a 1999 C2 coupe. It the only model that doesn't need an ims replacement (1999s had a proper dual row ims bearing, and the failure rate is below 0.05%). Other than automatics and cabs its the cheapest model. Most importantly its the lightest model. I wish I had done this instead of my expensive *** C4S
Do you want to have fun with friends and drive girls around with a fun second car? Nothing wrong with that. Get a 996.2 cab, especially 4S cab because of that widebooty. I also wish I had done this, but a 996.2 C2 cab would be sweet too. The only problem here is you cant track the car unless it's a sanctioned pca event. Cabs make every drive a bit of an event. They are also more practical because with the top down you can actually hold 4 people. I am a huge fan of cabs after my boxster. I kind of miss the little guy.
You will go through lots of tires. You will need to replace your front struts no matter what. Everything will cost you a lot more money than and other VAG car, but it isn't necessarily prohibitive. I would recommend not buying one until you can buy it, cash. You will immediately want to spend 5-6 k on repairs and upgrades and tires/wheels, helmets, trackdays, PCA events, SCCA events. This is extremely annoying to do if you're just making a payment on a loan and budgeting for the rest (ask me how I know).
I know you wont listen to this, but listen to it anyways. Also, consider a Z4 M or 06-08 Cayman S. They will be the same price but newer, and need less attention. If you only have $15k cash, consider buying an e46 M3, they are faster than **** and a lot cheaper. Feel free to PM me, I don't come on here a ton if you have other questions.
Also, I forgot to address this, but the AWD system on 996s and 997.1s is useless. Go youtube any videos of the cars driving in the snow. The front wheels wont even turn. Adding it to the car adds 80lbs, takes away 12whp and 10 wft/lbs. Thats why I removed mine. I put my car on 4 jack stands and started it up and al the wheels turned, GREAT! until i realized I could stop the fronts with pressure from my hands, because very little torque actually transfers. I would definitely not hesitate to buy an awd one, just don't consider it an advantage. I'm sorry to break it to everyone, but the viscous coupling is a dubious solution in real world settings and temperatures, and it doesn't really transfer torque, especially after 16 years.
Last edited by orangeman; 07-07-2017 at 01:31 PM.
#4
07-07-2017, 03:30 PM
I'm only a couple years older than you, and just purchased a 2003 C4S, my second porsche after a boxster S 986.
This is what I'd tell you: Decide what you want to do with the car.
Do you want to track it semi seriously? Buy a 1999 C2 coupe. It the only model that doesn't need an ims replacement (1999s had a proper dual row ims bearing, and the failure rate is below 0.05%). Other than automatics and cabs its the cheapest model. Most importantly its the lightest model. I wish I had done this instead of my expensive *** C4S
Do you want to have fun with friends and drive girls around with a fun second car? Nothing wrong with that. Get a 996.2 cab, especially 4S cab because of that widebooty. I also wish I had done this, but a 996.2 C2 cab would be sweet too. The only problem here is you cant track the car unless it's a sanctioned pca event. Cabs make every drive a bit of an event. They are also more practical because with the top down you can actually hold 4 people. I am a huge fan of cabs after my boxster. I kind of miss the little guy.
You will go through lots of tires. You will need to replace your front struts no matter what. Everything will cost you a lot more money than and other VAG car, but it isn't necessarily prohibitive. I would recommend not buying one until you can buy it, cash. You will immediately want to spend 5-6 k on repairs and upgrades and tires/wheels, helmets, trackdays, PCA events, SCCA events. This is extremely annoying to do if you're just making a payment on a loan and budgeting for the rest (ask me how I know).
I know you wont listen to this, but listen to it anyways. Also, consider a Z4 M or 06-08 Cayman S. They will be the same price but newer, and need less attention. If you only have $15k cash, consider buying an e46 M3, they are faster than **** and a lot cheaper. Feel free to PM me, I don't come on here a ton if you have other questions.
Also, I forgot to address this, but the AWD system on 996s and 997.1s is useless. Go youtube any videos of the cars driving in the snow. The front wheels wont even turn. Adding it to the car adds 80lbs, takes away 12whp and 10 wft/lbs. Thats why I removed mine. I put my car on 4 jack stands and started it up and al the wheels turned, GREAT! until i realized I could stop the fronts with pressure from my hands, because very little torque actually transfers. I would definitely not hesitate to buy an awd one, just don't consider it an advantage. I'm sorry to break it to everyone, but the viscous coupling is a dubious solution in real world settings and temperatures, and it doesn't really transfer torque, especially after 16 years.
This is what I'd tell you: Decide what you want to do with the car.
Do you want to track it semi seriously? Buy a 1999 C2 coupe. It the only model that doesn't need an ims replacement (1999s had a proper dual row ims bearing, and the failure rate is below 0.05%). Other than automatics and cabs its the cheapest model. Most importantly its the lightest model. I wish I had done this instead of my expensive *** C4S
Do you want to have fun with friends and drive girls around with a fun second car? Nothing wrong with that. Get a 996.2 cab, especially 4S cab because of that widebooty. I also wish I had done this, but a 996.2 C2 cab would be sweet too. The only problem here is you cant track the car unless it's a sanctioned pca event. Cabs make every drive a bit of an event. They are also more practical because with the top down you can actually hold 4 people. I am a huge fan of cabs after my boxster. I kind of miss the little guy.
You will go through lots of tires. You will need to replace your front struts no matter what. Everything will cost you a lot more money than and other VAG car, but it isn't necessarily prohibitive. I would recommend not buying one until you can buy it, cash. You will immediately want to spend 5-6 k on repairs and upgrades and tires/wheels, helmets, trackdays, PCA events, SCCA events. This is extremely annoying to do if you're just making a payment on a loan and budgeting for the rest (ask me how I know).
I know you wont listen to this, but listen to it anyways. Also, consider a Z4 M or 06-08 Cayman S. They will be the same price but newer, and need less attention. If you only have $15k cash, consider buying an e46 M3, they are faster than **** and a lot cheaper. Feel free to PM me, I don't come on here a ton if you have other questions.
Also, I forgot to address this, but the AWD system on 996s and 997.1s is useless. Go youtube any videos of the cars driving in the snow. The front wheels wont even turn. Adding it to the car adds 80lbs, takes away 12whp and 10 wft/lbs. Thats why I removed mine. I put my car on 4 jack stands and started it up and al the wheels turned, GREAT! until i realized I could stop the fronts with pressure from my hands, because very little torque actually transfers. I would definitely not hesitate to buy an awd one, just don't consider it an advantage. I'm sorry to break it to everyone, but the viscous coupling is a dubious solution in real world settings and temperatures, and it doesn't really transfer torque, especially after 16 years.
My Porsche techs cautioned me to avoid a situation in which the car was "stuck" with the rear wheels spinning and the car stationary. (I was venturing into an area of the country in which I might (and did) encounter snow.)
Putting the car in the air and expecting the front tires to spin with anything other than just a tiny bit of torque is just not a "fair test" of the AWD system. (Prolonged exposure to this treatment can damage the viscous coupling. The discs are not intended to withstand large differences in rotational speeds.)
Porsche claims the minimum transfer of torque is 5% but doesn't give a speed at which this occurs. It also claims a maximum of 40% but does offer a speed at which this occurs: ~150mph.
This viscous coupling AWD system is *not* the AWD system to pull the car out of a ditch or snowbank or up an icy hill even with proper snow tires fitted.
Tire sizes/combinations have to be considered to stay within the factory sanctioned front vs. rear tire revs/mile. This is kind of tough because the factory doesn't publish the min/max front vs. rear tire revs/mile numbers. It only provides wheel/tire combinations that if one works the tire diameters he can at least get a feel for what's ok and what's not.
Well, unless he works the numbers on the winter wheel/tire combinations.
As best I can tell the only reason to get an AWD 996 is for the wide body or because the best example of a car one can find and afford has the AWD system (and a road test and a careful check of the system afterwards finds no signs of any issues: noises, leaks).
My 996 Turbo of course has the AWD system. I accepted this because I wanted a Turbo. If the AWD system acts up I'll probably have it removed and the car converted to just RWD.
If one buys an example thinking he's going to have the Porsche equivalent to an Audi for winter driving or successfully play a rally driver in the boonies (as in keeping the car out of the ditches and away from trees) he's in for a big and likely expensive to repair disappointment.
#5
07-07-2017, 04:12 PM
Hello,
My findings about 996 (correct me if I'm wrong)
-Parts are widely available and not that expensive since it shares lots of parts with the Boxter
- This is the easiest Porsche 911 to work on yourself.
-Maintenance are easy and nothing extraordinarily expensive
- IMS failure is a common issue.
- +2002 gets HID xenon headlights like the GT models
- For some reason many Porsche fans think this generation is ugly but for me its actually the most iconic one. ( I remember my childhood doctor had a yellow Turbo. I was about 10yrs old back in 2000)
Per my budget and learning so far I'm focused on a 2002-2003 Carrera, Carrera 4 or Carrera 4S, Targa or Coupe. Manual trans. I like the 2002 headlights better and I never really liked convertibles plus I don't want to run risk of having leaks
Anyway my question are:
Can this car be as reliable, ease of maintenance, cost of repairs assuming DYI type of labor when compared to the Japanese options?
Can this IMS issue be prevented, is it really not that difficult and relatively inexpensive to fix as I been told?
What year model 996 has tendency to be more reliable?
Are the AWD (4 and 4S) model more complicated to work on or unreliable? Is the AWD worth it?
Any other issued I should know about? Please I can use as much info as I can get.
My findings about 996 (correct me if I'm wrong)
-Parts are widely available and not that expensive since it shares lots of parts with the Boxter
- This is the easiest Porsche 911 to work on yourself.
-Maintenance are easy and nothing extraordinarily expensive
- IMS failure is a common issue.
- +2002 gets HID xenon headlights like the GT models
- For some reason many Porsche fans think this generation is ugly but for me its actually the most iconic one. ( I remember my childhood doctor had a yellow Turbo. I was about 10yrs old back in 2000)
Per my budget and learning so far I'm focused on a 2002-2003 Carrera, Carrera 4 or Carrera 4S, Targa or Coupe. Manual trans. I like the 2002 headlights better and I never really liked convertibles plus I don't want to run risk of having leaks
Anyway my question are:
Can this car be as reliable, ease of maintenance, cost of repairs assuming DYI type of labor when compared to the Japanese options?
Can this IMS issue be prevented, is it really not that difficult and relatively inexpensive to fix as I been told?
What year model 996 has tendency to be more reliable?
Are the AWD (4 and 4S) model more complicated to work on or unreliable? Is the AWD worth it?
Any other issued I should know about? Please I can use as much info as I can get.
Some places, other than dealers, offer factory or "OEM" parts. The OEM parts may or may not be identical to the parts one buys from Porsche (through one of its authorized dealers). (I tossed an "OEM" oil filter element for my 2008 Cayman S because it didn't compare very well to the filter element I bought at a local Porsche dealer.)
The parts are not necessarily inexpensive even if if they are the same parts as used on the Boxster. (I have a 2002 Boxster and when it needed a new VarioCam solenoid and actuator -- and I do *not* know if these are the same parts used on the 996 engine -- these parts came to a total of somewhere around $1500.)
The car is not as easy to work on as some cars. I didn't do a lot wrenching on my 2006 GTO but the engine was easily accessible from up top and to change the oil/filter I didn't even need to drive the car up on ramps.
With my Boxster, CaymanS, and Turbo when I waned to change the oil I had to back the car up on Rhino ramps to get access underneath. (Also, it gave me a chance to really look the car over from underneath which is where most of the time issues show up first.)
I never did anything more to my cars that oil/filter services, brakes, and changed the cabin and engine intake filters. Oh, I removed the bumper cover once or twice with the Boxster.
The engine compartment of the Turbo is a tight squeeze and when it needs say the fuel filter replaced I take it to the local dealer. The techs there have lots of experience working on this model.
If you want to service your car you really should consider getting a lift system, a portable system that you can put on the garage floor and use it to lift the car. Ideally the lift system you select should provide you with a way to lift the car either by the tires/wheels or by using the factory sanctioned lift points.
Lifting the car by its lift points lets the tires/wheels dangle so you can remove them to do brakes, or to change plugs and coils. I believe you will also need to remove the exhaust system too and having the car in the air a couple of feet or so makes this task less a real effort.
I have no recent (not since the early '70's) Japanese car wrenching experience but the 996 is no Honda Civic. While the 996 is a well engineered car (not implying the Civic isn't) the 996 is not really designed to be easy to service or repair.
Factory repair manuals were available at some point but I don't know what their availability is at this time. There is a book or two, the 996 Essential Companion or something close to that title comes to mind that has some service/repair coverage but nothing like the factory manual. (I have a factory manual for my Boxster. The manuals, all 11 or 12 of them, weigh 64lbs.)
Porsche doesn't publish any engine clearances, fits, tolerances, etc., so one can't rebuild a 996 engine with say the ease one could rebuild a Dodge 318ci V8 (which I did back in the day).
For AWD I had replied to another post on this thread. My advice is only get AWD if the best example car you can find and afford has AWD and a thorough road test and afterwards a PPI finds no signs of any issues from the AWD hardware or the rest of the car.
For the most reliable examples the early 3.4l engine cars come in for high praise by those who claim to know.
For addressing the IMS (bearing) issue I can't offer any real guidance. You'll just have to search out and read all you can on this subject (stop short before you go mad...) and make up your own mind.
For other issues the car is just a used car so you need to thoroughly check the car out. Spend time as a passenger then as a driver in the car while it is being driven like you intend to drive it.
Afterwards a PPI is recommended because among other things this gets the car in the air so a thorough check can be made for any signs of any issues. Leaks mainly. Part of the reason for a test ride and then a test drive is to have the engine running around a hour which gives the DME time to test and pass all the readiness monitor tests and for any leaks to make themselves known.
The general rule of used car buying to to have set aside 10% of the used car's purchase price just in case. In the case of the 996 (and other Porsche models) I'd advise you have to have 20% set aside. This does not mean you buy a car with issues and then use this money to address them. Any issues you find that are not deal killers you should strive for a price adjustment.
What I'm talking about is the tendency for a "new" (car purchased used) car to develop an issue shortly after one buys the car. This can be a flat tire which can require you buy 2 possibly 4 new tires. Or a water pump goes bad. An AOS. The clutch slips, and so on.
You want to avoid paying good to excellent money for a car in say fair condition and then spending even more money to bring the car up to good to excellent condition.
#6
07-13-2017, 12:26 PM
Buy the 1999 and earlier (1998) and enjoy!
For the record............
There is NO IMS problem with 1999 and earlier 996 3.4s period. They were overbuilt so the 2001+ received the lessor 'cost-cutting' engines. Facts are Facts:
Pre-2001cars had a 1% failure rate.
Consider the sources!! Most posts relating to the issue are from shops thatspecialize in replacing it. This is money $$$ for them!!
For those who are interested, or who have questions regarding the IMS Bearingfor the 996, please read this;
A user on Rennlist shared his experience with trying to get payment from theclass action suit against Porsche for his 2001 996 and got a reply fromPorsche's Lawyers:
"Based on the information provided to us by Porsche in discovery, thefailure rate of vehicles with your version of the IMS, from 2001 to 2005, wasin the range of 4 to 10%. Porsche began using that particular version of theIMS that was subject to the higher failure rate as part of its production runsexclusively as of May 4, 2001... The failure rate of the IMS in Porschevehicles pre-dating May 2001 and post-dating February 2005 was documented atless than 1%."
(Full Post here: http://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/590650-the-ims-discussion-thread-read-this-first-6.html#post12327123)
There is NO IMS problem with 1999 and earlier 996 3.4s period. They were overbuilt so the 2001+ received the lessor 'cost-cutting' engines. Facts are Facts:
Pre-2001cars had a 1% failure rate.
Consider the sources!! Most posts relating to the issue are from shops thatspecialize in replacing it. This is money $$$ for them!!
For those who are interested, or who have questions regarding the IMS Bearingfor the 996, please read this;
A user on Rennlist shared his experience with trying to get payment from theclass action suit against Porsche for his 2001 996 and got a reply fromPorsche's Lawyers:
"Based on the information provided to us by Porsche in discovery, thefailure rate of vehicles with your version of the IMS, from 2001 to 2005, wasin the range of 4 to 10%. Porsche began using that particular version of theIMS that was subject to the higher failure rate as part of its production runsexclusively as of May 4, 2001... The failure rate of the IMS in Porschevehicles pre-dating May 2001 and post-dating February 2005 was documented atless than 1%."
(Full Post here: http://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/590650-the-ims-discussion-thread-read-this-first-6.html#post12327123)
Last edited by Porsche99; 07-13-2017 at 12:31 PM.
#7
07-27-2017, 01:10 PM
For the record............
There is NO IMS problem with 1999 and earlier 996 3.4s period. They were overbuilt so the 2001+ received the lessor 'cost-cutting' engines. Facts are Facts:
Pre-2001cars had a 1% failure rate.
Consider the sources!! Most posts relating to the issue are from shops thatspecialize in replacing it. This is money $$$ for them!!
For those who are interested, or who have questions regarding the IMS Bearingfor the 996, please read this;
A user on Rennlist shared his experience with trying to get payment from theclass action suit against Porsche for his 2001 996 and got a reply fromPorsche's Lawyers:
"Based on the information provided to us by Porsche in discovery, thefailure rate of vehicles with your version of the IMS, from 2001 to 2005, wasin the range of 4 to 10%. Porsche began using that particular version of theIMS that was subject to the higher failure rate as part of its production runsexclusively as of May 4, 2001... The failure rate of the IMS in Porschevehicles pre-dating May 2001 and post-dating February 2005 was documented atless than 1%."
(Full Post here: http://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/590650-the-ims-discussion-thread-read-this-first-6.html#post12327123)
There is NO IMS problem with 1999 and earlier 996 3.4s period. They were overbuilt so the 2001+ received the lessor 'cost-cutting' engines. Facts are Facts:
Pre-2001cars had a 1% failure rate.
Consider the sources!! Most posts relating to the issue are from shops thatspecialize in replacing it. This is money $$$ for them!!
For those who are interested, or who have questions regarding the IMS Bearingfor the 996, please read this;
A user on Rennlist shared his experience with trying to get payment from theclass action suit against Porsche for his 2001 996 and got a reply fromPorsche's Lawyers:
"Based on the information provided to us by Porsche in discovery, thefailure rate of vehicles with your version of the IMS, from 2001 to 2005, wasin the range of 4 to 10%. Porsche began using that particular version of theIMS that was subject to the higher failure rate as part of its production runsexclusively as of May 4, 2001... The failure rate of the IMS in Porschevehicles pre-dating May 2001 and post-dating February 2005 was documented atless than 1%."
(Full Post here: http://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/590650-the-ims-discussion-thread-read-this-first-6.html#post12327123)
For the record............
There is NO IMS problem with 1999 and earlier 996 3.4s period. They were overbuilt so the 2001+ received the lessor 'cost-cutting' engines. Facts are Facts:
Pre-2001cars had a 1% failure rate.
Consider the sources!! Most posts relating to the issue are from shops thatspecialize in replacing it. This is money $$$ for them!!
For those who are interested, or who have questions regarding the IMS Bearingfor the 996, please read this;
A user on Rennlist shared his experience with trying to get payment from theclass action suit against Porsche for his 2001 996 and got a reply fromPorsche's Lawyers:
"Based on the information provided to us by Porsche in discovery, thefailure rate of vehicles with your version of the IMS, from 2001 to 2005, wasin the range of 4 to 10%. Porsche began using that particular version of theIMS that was subject to the higher failure rate as part of its production runsexclusively as of May 4, 2001... The failure rate of the IMS in Porschevehicles pre-dating May 2001 and post-dating February 2005 was documented atless than 1%."
(Full Post here: http://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/590650-the-ims-discussion-thread-read-this-first-6.html#post12327123)
There is NO IMS problem with 1999 and earlier 996 3.4s period. They were overbuilt so the 2001+ received the lessor 'cost-cutting' engines. Facts are Facts:
Pre-2001cars had a 1% failure rate.
Consider the sources!! Most posts relating to the issue are from shops thatspecialize in replacing it. This is money $$$ for them!!
For those who are interested, or who have questions regarding the IMS Bearingfor the 996, please read this;
A user on Rennlist shared his experience with trying to get payment from theclass action suit against Porsche for his 2001 996 and got a reply fromPorsche's Lawyers:
"Based on the information provided to us by Porsche in discovery, thefailure rate of vehicles with your version of the IMS, from 2001 to 2005, wasin the range of 4 to 10%. Porsche began using that particular version of theIMS that was subject to the higher failure rate as part of its production runsexclusively as of May 4, 2001... The failure rate of the IMS in Porschevehicles pre-dating May 2001 and post-dating February 2005 was documented atless than 1%."
(Full Post here: http://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/590650-the-ims-discussion-thread-read-this-first-6.html#post12327123)
While I generally agree that the '99 and '00 have a stronger IMS, being double row bearings, I wouldn't go so far as to say there are no problems.
From my admittedly not perfect research, the class action lawsuit did not cover these earlier years due to age/limitation of liability rather than anything to do with failure rates. In those years there was no turbo, no special editions, so buyers were limited to the 996 and 986 being that these were completely fresh designs. They sold a good many of them, by Porsche standards anyway. While later years arguably had a higher failure rate, there were more engine variations. My point is the pool of cars in '99 and '00 were ALL potential problems. They simply excluded possibly the largest pool to limit liability, which just so happened to be the oldest. They could argue if a car had lasted X years, it likely wasn't going to have the IMS problem. True or not.
I also think the failure rates are a little higher than 1% but not more than 5%. This is from many sources including Panamera, Jake Raby/Flat6 Innovations, Excellence, multiple forums, anecdotal, etc. Full disclosure is that I did the IMS upgrade on my '99 for peace of mind. Even a 5% chance of losing a ~$20K engine with slim to no chance of rebuild (major credit to Dharn55 for accomplishing a rebuild in his garage
!) just did not sit well with me. Yes the IMS upgrade is expensive, but I saw as moderately expensive insurance. YMMV
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#8
07-31-2017, 07:13 PM
First and foremost - get a thorough PPI by a qualified Porsche tech.
In a lot of cases it's easier to work on my 996 than to work on my VW Beetle. I'm not much of a mechanic but I've replaced spark plugs, tubes, pads and rotors, water pump, thermostat, and serpentine belt. I do oil changes and brake fluid flushes. I've dropped the exhaust system numerous times as it is in the way when doing some R&R jobs. I can now drop the exhaust in about 15 minutes. I don't have access to a lift. All of these things were done on ramps or jack stands.
If you can DIY it's not costly to own a 996. Rear tires wear pretty quickly because of the weight over the rear end. The Porsche parts do carry a premium but often you can find an Audi or Volkswagen direct replacement part (from the same supplier) for significantly less.
The first things I would address are:
LNE IMS (there are several choices) - This is not something I would attempt to install myself, but some DIYers do it. I paid an indy $3200 for installation of an LNE dual-row IMS, LNE low temp thermostat, and X51 baffled oil pan. I think the bearing costs about $550 for the part. My car is a Tiptronic so I think the labor is more than for a manual. If you have a 6-speed and couple it with a clutch change you save money on the combined labor.
Low Temp Thermostat
LNE Spin-on oil filter adapter
LNE Magnetic Drain plug
FilterMag Magnet for Oil Filter
In a lot of cases it's easier to work on my 996 than to work on my VW Beetle. I'm not much of a mechanic but I've replaced spark plugs, tubes, pads and rotors, water pump, thermostat, and serpentine belt. I do oil changes and brake fluid flushes. I've dropped the exhaust system numerous times as it is in the way when doing some R&R jobs. I can now drop the exhaust in about 15 minutes. I don't have access to a lift. All of these things were done on ramps or jack stands.
If you can DIY it's not costly to own a 996. Rear tires wear pretty quickly because of the weight over the rear end. The Porsche parts do carry a premium but often you can find an Audi or Volkswagen direct replacement part (from the same supplier) for significantly less.
The first things I would address are:
LNE IMS (there are several choices) - This is not something I would attempt to install myself, but some DIYers do it. I paid an indy $3200 for installation of an LNE dual-row IMS, LNE low temp thermostat, and X51 baffled oil pan. I think the bearing costs about $550 for the part. My car is a Tiptronic so I think the labor is more than for a manual. If you have a 6-speed and couple it with a clutch change you save money on the combined labor.
Low Temp Thermostat
LNE Spin-on oil filter adapter
LNE Magnetic Drain plug
FilterMag Magnet for Oil Filter
Last edited by wyovino; 07-31-2017 at 08:03 PM.
#9
08-26-2017, 05:00 AM
I wish I would have researched beforehand, like you are...
I wish I did what you're doing now before I jumped in head-first. I went to a small showroom and I'm sure the salesperson knew immediately that I was going to buy the car by the look on my face after the test drive. I ended up buying a 2002 C4S in great shape with 70k miles on it.
My findings about 996 (correct me if I'm wrong)
-Parts are widely available and not that expensive since it shares lots of parts with the Boxter
Depends on what you're looking for/which parts.
- This is the easiest Porsche 911 to work on yourself.
I'm not a mechanic, have limited tools, no lift, and can easily do an oil change/air filter swap in my driveway since my driveway is at a somewhat steep angle. I just have the car parked in the garage, with the *** end of the car hanging out right before the driveway starts to decline to give me some space to work. The only 'real' time involved is waiting for the oil to drain. Other than that, I have an indy friend who specializes in P cars to take care of the rest.
-Maintenance are easy and nothing extraordinarily expensive
I can't comment, because the indy I mentioned helps me out as much as possible.
- IMS failure is a common issue.
I'm biased because it happened to me. I bought mine used with 70k miles in 2011, I immediately had an LNE IMS put in, simply for preventative maintenance because I had heard horror stories. A new clutch, and some other random little items, the IMS retrofit, came out to about $3,500 total. The car ran fine as a daily driver for me from 2011 until 2014 with no mechanical issues...until one day I was driving on the freeway and heard some strange "rocks in a tin can" noises. I was a moron and drove it to the nearest dealership on my way home instead of just stopping. The Porsche dealer quoted me $22k for a new engine, and I'm sure the labor was going to be something around $10-15k. Long story short, the car that I had grown to love sat in my garage collecting dust until May 2016 when I could save up enough money to even begin to think about a repair. My indy took some classes and referred me one of his instructors, a guy well known in these circles that I didn't know at the time, who ultimately got me up and running again by November 2016.
- +2002 gets HID xenon headlights like the GT models
True, mine has xenons. Not sure if all 2002+ do?
- For some reason many Porsche fans think this generation is ugly but for me its actually the most iconic one. ( I remember my childhood doctor had a yellow Turbo. I was about 10yrs old back in 2000)
I work with some guys who have some really nice 993's and 997s, and a guy with a really cool 964. The purists can be ****** and comment on the "scrambled eggs" headlights, and I actually don't blame them, I'd rather have circles too! But the interiors of the older ones are wicked dated looking. Still cool, but as a daily driver, I like mine more. Even though it's still really 'analog', it doesn't feel as old as it is. I also like the wide-body look more than any of the other ones, except for the really old classics. I'd pay $28k for something that has scrambled eggs than the going prices for the other ones with cirlces anyday.
Per my budget and learning so far I'm focused on a 2002-2003 Carrera, Carrera 4 or Carrera 4S, Targa or Coupe. Manual trans. I like the 2002 headlights better and I never really liked convertibles plus I don't want to run risk of having leaks
Same here, never was a fan of convertibles, and my 02' C4S 6speed is really fun to drive. It never gets old.
Anyway my question are:
Can this car be as reliable, ease of maintenance, cost of repairs assuming DYI type of labor when compared to the Japanese options?
It's more expensive than a honda to repair, but less than some high-end car like the NSX, or some crazy Lexus. I had a Lexus as a daily driver before my P, and it was reliable, but the little things went out pretty often...water pump, some electronic issues, nothing major. But my 15 year old P has only been in the shop for 1 reason, albeit a very big and costly reason. (I do need new suspension though, but I'm still riding on OEM!) I drive through some hills with good corners daily, and I tend to rotate through tires no more than any other car I've driven. Less than any SUV or truck I've owned, for sure. But I don't track it. I've been through 3 sets of tires since I've owned it, and the last set were replaced because they flat-spotted sitting in my garage for 2 years, but the tread was still good.
Can this IMS issue be prevented, is it really not that difficult and relatively inexpensive to fix as I been told?
I tried to do exactly that when it was running fine, but apparently if there has already been some damage done, even with the update/upgrade kit, you still run a chance of having a failure as the metal particles slowly eat away internally, eventually causing problems. That said, it's often over diagnosed as the problem with the engine. Everyone always jumps to "IMS!" when there's an issue with a 996.
What year model 996 has tendency to be more reliable?
Deferring to the other expert's comments on this thread. I'm not sure.
Are the AWD (4 and 4S) model more complicated to work on or unreliable? Is the AWD worth it?
Mines obviously AWD. They're definitely heavier, and less fun in terms of purposely trying to oversteer. I've driven mine in the dirt and light snow and it definitely works, but you have to have the right tires on it to grip.
Any other issued I should know about? Please I can use as much info as I can get.[/QUOTE]
The problem I've had ever since I've had my car is that I love driving it (not in traffic with a stick- that sucks in any car). It's been my favorite car of many, and when it died, I was pretty devastated. If I didn't care, I could have easily sold it as a paperweight for parts, but it grew on me too much to just toss it, even if it was pricey to fix. I come from a "car family" background too, and I usually get over driving a car after 6 months, but for some reason, not this one. That's how they get you hooked! It's an old car too; it's weird.
I'm happily commuting daily in it with a rebuilt engine, which is even better than before. Now I'm really screwed if something happens again. If you get one, you'll eventually want to upgrade some things that can be pretty expensive. You'll want coilovers, probably want to find the ever-elusive PSE exhaust, and the list goes on....
Good Luck!
My findings about 996 (correct me if I'm wrong)
-Parts are widely available and not that expensive since it shares lots of parts with the Boxter
Depends on what you're looking for/which parts.
- This is the easiest Porsche 911 to work on yourself.
I'm not a mechanic, have limited tools, no lift, and can easily do an oil change/air filter swap in my driveway since my driveway is at a somewhat steep angle. I just have the car parked in the garage, with the *** end of the car hanging out right before the driveway starts to decline to give me some space to work. The only 'real' time involved is waiting for the oil to drain. Other than that, I have an indy friend who specializes in P cars to take care of the rest.
-Maintenance are easy and nothing extraordinarily expensive
I can't comment, because the indy I mentioned helps me out as much as possible.
- IMS failure is a common issue.
I'm biased because it happened to me. I bought mine used with 70k miles in 2011, I immediately had an LNE IMS put in, simply for preventative maintenance because I had heard horror stories. A new clutch, and some other random little items, the IMS retrofit, came out to about $3,500 total. The car ran fine as a daily driver for me from 2011 until 2014 with no mechanical issues...until one day I was driving on the freeway and heard some strange "rocks in a tin can" noises. I was a moron and drove it to the nearest dealership on my way home instead of just stopping. The Porsche dealer quoted me $22k for a new engine, and I'm sure the labor was going to be something around $10-15k. Long story short, the car that I had grown to love sat in my garage collecting dust until May 2016 when I could save up enough money to even begin to think about a repair. My indy took some classes and referred me one of his instructors, a guy well known in these circles that I didn't know at the time, who ultimately got me up and running again by November 2016.
- +2002 gets HID xenon headlights like the GT models
True, mine has xenons. Not sure if all 2002+ do?
- For some reason many Porsche fans think this generation is ugly but for me its actually the most iconic one. ( I remember my childhood doctor had a yellow Turbo. I was about 10yrs old back in 2000)
I work with some guys who have some really nice 993's and 997s, and a guy with a really cool 964. The purists can be ****** and comment on the "scrambled eggs" headlights, and I actually don't blame them, I'd rather have circles too! But the interiors of the older ones are wicked dated looking. Still cool, but as a daily driver, I like mine more. Even though it's still really 'analog', it doesn't feel as old as it is. I also like the wide-body look more than any of the other ones, except for the really old classics. I'd pay $28k for something that has scrambled eggs than the going prices for the other ones with cirlces anyday.
Per my budget and learning so far I'm focused on a 2002-2003 Carrera, Carrera 4 or Carrera 4S, Targa or Coupe. Manual trans. I like the 2002 headlights better and I never really liked convertibles plus I don't want to run risk of having leaks
Same here, never was a fan of convertibles, and my 02' C4S 6speed is really fun to drive. It never gets old.
Anyway my question are:
Can this car be as reliable, ease of maintenance, cost of repairs assuming DYI type of labor when compared to the Japanese options?
It's more expensive than a honda to repair, but less than some high-end car like the NSX, or some crazy Lexus. I had a Lexus as a daily driver before my P, and it was reliable, but the little things went out pretty often...water pump, some electronic issues, nothing major. But my 15 year old P has only been in the shop for 1 reason, albeit a very big and costly reason. (I do need new suspension though, but I'm still riding on OEM!) I drive through some hills with good corners daily, and I tend to rotate through tires no more than any other car I've driven. Less than any SUV or truck I've owned, for sure. But I don't track it. I've been through 3 sets of tires since I've owned it, and the last set were replaced because they flat-spotted sitting in my garage for 2 years, but the tread was still good.
Can this IMS issue be prevented, is it really not that difficult and relatively inexpensive to fix as I been told?
I tried to do exactly that when it was running fine, but apparently if there has already been some damage done, even with the update/upgrade kit, you still run a chance of having a failure as the metal particles slowly eat away internally, eventually causing problems. That said, it's often over diagnosed as the problem with the engine. Everyone always jumps to "IMS!" when there's an issue with a 996.
What year model 996 has tendency to be more reliable?
Deferring to the other expert's comments on this thread. I'm not sure.
Are the AWD (4 and 4S) model more complicated to work on or unreliable? Is the AWD worth it?
Mines obviously AWD. They're definitely heavier, and less fun in terms of purposely trying to oversteer. I've driven mine in the dirt and light snow and it definitely works, but you have to have the right tires on it to grip.
Any other issued I should know about? Please I can use as much info as I can get.[/QUOTE]
The problem I've had ever since I've had my car is that I love driving it (not in traffic with a stick- that sucks in any car). It's been my favorite car of many, and when it died, I was pretty devastated. If I didn't care, I could have easily sold it as a paperweight for parts, but it grew on me too much to just toss it, even if it was pricey to fix. I come from a "car family" background too, and I usually get over driving a car after 6 months, but for some reason, not this one. That's how they get you hooked! It's an old car too; it's weird.
I'm happily commuting daily in it with a rebuilt engine, which is even better than before. Now I'm really screwed if something happens again. If you get one, you'll eventually want to upgrade some things that can be pretty expensive. You'll want coilovers, probably want to find the ever-elusive PSE exhaust, and the list goes on....
Good Luck!
#10
09-06-2017, 11:13 PM
Not sure if the OP still cares or is involved, but to answer question on HID, it's not standard equipment.
I have a 2003 C4S and it does not have the Xenon headlights.
Although I would have preferred to have it, since I rarely drive the car at night, it's not important enough to upgrade for $2k.
If I get very motivated, I'd consider upgrading just the bulbs to start.
Let us know what you decided.
Good luck.
PL
I have a 2003 C4S and it does not have the Xenon headlights.
Although I would have preferred to have it, since I rarely drive the car at night, it's not important enough to upgrade for $2k.
If I get very motivated, I'd consider upgrading just the bulbs to start.
Let us know what you decided.
Good luck.
PL
#11
09-12-2017, 09:39 AM
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Evergreen, Colorado
Posts: 2,272
Rep Power: 115 
I'll add a few comments to the thread, just in case the original poster is still out there considering a 996.
- The headlights changed in the MK II cars (2002+ in the US) to the turbo style headlights. They aren't exactly the same; turbos have a smooth finish inside the headlights, while the other cars have a ribbed finish. As mentioned above, HID headlights were optional for all the cars except the turbo. You can tell if a car has HID headlights because it will have oval, silver caps on the headlight assembly covering the pop-up headlight washers. Cars with standard halogen headlights do not have the washers.
- Maintenance isn't bad on the 996. Basic things like oil changes and brakes are quite easy. Motor mounts are easy to change. Some other things are more difficult, like changing a water pump. They are certainly easier to self-maintain than a 991, but there can still be challenges.
- The 996 series cars are approaching 20 years old for the early models. Reliability is a concern in any older car. Things wear, things break, etc. Even a "reliable" car will need some things replaced and/or maintained. As an example, most people who know anything about the 996 consider the water pump to be a disposable item that needs to be changed every so often. I sold my 996 C4S because while it was reliable (never left me stranded, never broke down), the maintenance cost was increasing significantly every year that I owned it.
- IMSB failure isn't common, but it potentially impacts every "regular" 996 (even the '99s) and the early 997 cars. There are aftermarket replacements and other solutions that you can purchase that help to mitigate the risk of this failure. The IMSB replacement products can only be installed with removal of the transmission, so many people wait until their clutch needs replacement to address the IMSB.
- While IMSB failure appears to be more common in the cars with the single-row IMSB, the early cars had failures too. They also had issues with engine block porosity and cracked heads that resulted in intermix issues. None of the 996 engines are "bulletproof". The closest you'll get to that is the GT3 or turbo engine.
- The AWD system in the 996 has shortcomings, as mentioned above. It was not really designed for snow and ice. It was designed for better traction when cornering. My 2002 C4S suffered front differential failure, and it wasn't inexpensive to fix it. It's a sealed system and it doesn't have many (if any) user serviceable parts.
Overall, the 996 represents a great bargain, and an easy way to get into Porsche ownership. I thoroughly enjoyed my 996 C4S and I'm glad that I owned it. That being said, don't fool yourself into thinking you can get a high-performance car that's more than 15 years old, for under $20,000, that will be completely reliable and inexpensive to maintain. That's a pipe dream.
- The headlights changed in the MK II cars (2002+ in the US) to the turbo style headlights. They aren't exactly the same; turbos have a smooth finish inside the headlights, while the other cars have a ribbed finish. As mentioned above, HID headlights were optional for all the cars except the turbo. You can tell if a car has HID headlights because it will have oval, silver caps on the headlight assembly covering the pop-up headlight washers. Cars with standard halogen headlights do not have the washers.
- Maintenance isn't bad on the 996. Basic things like oil changes and brakes are quite easy. Motor mounts are easy to change. Some other things are more difficult, like changing a water pump. They are certainly easier to self-maintain than a 991, but there can still be challenges.
- The 996 series cars are approaching 20 years old for the early models. Reliability is a concern in any older car. Things wear, things break, etc. Even a "reliable" car will need some things replaced and/or maintained. As an example, most people who know anything about the 996 consider the water pump to be a disposable item that needs to be changed every so often. I sold my 996 C4S because while it was reliable (never left me stranded, never broke down), the maintenance cost was increasing significantly every year that I owned it.
- IMSB failure isn't common, but it potentially impacts every "regular" 996 (even the '99s) and the early 997 cars. There are aftermarket replacements and other solutions that you can purchase that help to mitigate the risk of this failure. The IMSB replacement products can only be installed with removal of the transmission, so many people wait until their clutch needs replacement to address the IMSB.
- While IMSB failure appears to be more common in the cars with the single-row IMSB, the early cars had failures too. They also had issues with engine block porosity and cracked heads that resulted in intermix issues. None of the 996 engines are "bulletproof". The closest you'll get to that is the GT3 or turbo engine.
- The AWD system in the 996 has shortcomings, as mentioned above. It was not really designed for snow and ice. It was designed for better traction when cornering. My 2002 C4S suffered front differential failure, and it wasn't inexpensive to fix it. It's a sealed system and it doesn't have many (if any) user serviceable parts.
Overall, the 996 represents a great bargain, and an easy way to get into Porsche ownership. I thoroughly enjoyed my 996 C4S and I'm glad that I owned it. That being said, don't fool yourself into thinking you can get a high-performance car that's more than 15 years old, for under $20,000, that will be completely reliable and inexpensive to maintain. That's a pipe dream.
#12
10-07-2017, 12:02 PM
I wish I did what you're doing now before I jumped in head-first. I went to a small showroom and I'm sure the salesperson knew immediately that I was going to buy the car by the look on my face after the test drive. I ended up buying a 2002 C4S in great shape with 70k miles on it.
My findings about 996 (correct me if I'm wrong)
-Parts are widely available and not that expensive since it shares lots of parts with the Boxter
Depends on what you're looking for/which parts.
- This is the easiest Porsche 911 to work on yourself.
I'm not a mechanic, have limited tools, no lift, and can easily do an oil change/air filter swap in my driveway since my driveway is at a somewhat steep angle. I just have the car parked in the garage, with the *** end of the car hanging out right before the driveway starts to decline to give me some space to work. The only 'real' time involved is waiting for the oil to drain. Other than that, I have an indy friend who specializes in P cars to take care of the rest.
-Maintenance are easy and nothing extraordinarily expensive
I can't comment, because the indy I mentioned helps me out as much as possible.
- IMS failure is a common issue.
I'm biased because it happened to me. I bought mine used with 70k miles in 2011, I immediately had an LNE IMS put in, simply for preventative maintenance because I had heard horror stories. A new clutch, and some other random little items, the IMS retrofit, came out to about $3,500 total. The car ran fine as a daily driver for me from 2011 until 2014 with no mechanical issues...until one day I was driving on the freeway and heard some strange "rocks in a tin can" noises. I was a moron and drove it to the nearest dealership on my way home instead of just stopping. The Porsche dealer quoted me $22k for a new engine, and I'm sure the labor was going to be something around $10-15k. Long story short, the car that I had grown to love sat in my garage collecting dust until May 2016 when I could save up enough money to even begin to think about a repair. My indy took some classes and referred me one of his instructors, a guy well known in these circles that I didn't know at the time, who ultimately got me up and running again by November 2016.
- +2002 gets HID xenon headlights like the GT models
True, mine has xenons. Not sure if all 2002+ do?
- For some reason many Porsche fans think this generation is ugly but for me its actually the most iconic one. ( I remember my childhood doctor had a yellow Turbo. I was about 10yrs old back in 2000)
I work with some guys who have some really nice 993's and 997s, and a guy with a really cool 964. The purists can be ****** and comment on the "scrambled eggs" headlights, and I actually don't blame them, I'd rather have circles too! But the interiors of the older ones are wicked dated looking. Still cool, but as a daily driver, I like mine more. Even though it's still really 'analog', it doesn't feel as old as it is. I also like the wide-body look more than any of the other ones, except for the really old classics. I'd pay $28k for something that has scrambled eggs than the going prices for the other ones with cirlces anyday.
Per my budget and learning so far I'm focused on a 2002-2003 Carrera, Carrera 4 or Carrera 4S, Targa or Coupe. Manual trans. I like the 2002 headlights better and I never really liked convertibles plus I don't want to run risk of having leaks
Same here, never was a fan of convertibles, and my 02' C4S 6speed is really fun to drive. It never gets old.
Anyway my question are:
Can this car be as reliable, ease of maintenance, cost of repairs assuming DYI type of labor when compared to the Japanese options?
It's more expensive than a honda to repair, but less than some high-end car like the NSX, or some crazy Lexus. I had a Lexus as a daily driver before my P, and it was reliable, but the little things went out pretty often...water pump, some electronic issues, nothing major. But my 15 year old P has only been in the shop for 1 reason, albeit a very big and costly reason. (I do need new suspension though, but I'm still riding on OEM!) I drive through some hills with good corners daily, and I tend to rotate through tires no more than any other car I've driven. Less than any SUV or truck I've owned, for sure. But I don't track it. I've been through 3 sets of tires since I've owned it, and the last set were replaced because they flat-spotted sitting in my garage for 2 years, but the tread was still good.
Can this IMS issue be prevented, is it really not that difficult and relatively inexpensive to fix as I been told?
I tried to do exactly that when it was running fine, but apparently if there has already been some damage done, even with the update/upgrade kit, you still run a chance of having a failure as the metal particles slowly eat away internally, eventually causing problems. That said, it's often over diagnosed as the problem with the engine. Everyone always jumps to "IMS!" when there's an issue with a 996.
What year model 996 has tendency to be more reliable?
Deferring to the other expert's comments on this thread. I'm not sure.
Are the AWD (4 and 4S) model more complicated to work on or unreliable? Is the AWD worth it?
Mines obviously AWD. They're definitely heavier, and less fun in terms of purposely trying to oversteer. I've driven mine in the dirt and light snow and it definitely works, but you have to have the right tires on it to grip.
Any other issued I should know about? Please I can use as much info as I can get.
My findings about 996 (correct me if I'm wrong)
-Parts are widely available and not that expensive since it shares lots of parts with the Boxter
Depends on what you're looking for/which parts.
- This is the easiest Porsche 911 to work on yourself.
I'm not a mechanic, have limited tools, no lift, and can easily do an oil change/air filter swap in my driveway since my driveway is at a somewhat steep angle. I just have the car parked in the garage, with the *** end of the car hanging out right before the driveway starts to decline to give me some space to work. The only 'real' time involved is waiting for the oil to drain. Other than that, I have an indy friend who specializes in P cars to take care of the rest.
-Maintenance are easy and nothing extraordinarily expensive
I can't comment, because the indy I mentioned helps me out as much as possible.
- IMS failure is a common issue.
I'm biased because it happened to me. I bought mine used with 70k miles in 2011, I immediately had an LNE IMS put in, simply for preventative maintenance because I had heard horror stories. A new clutch, and some other random little items, the IMS retrofit, came out to about $3,500 total. The car ran fine as a daily driver for me from 2011 until 2014 with no mechanical issues...until one day I was driving on the freeway and heard some strange "rocks in a tin can" noises. I was a moron and drove it to the nearest dealership on my way home instead of just stopping. The Porsche dealer quoted me $22k for a new engine, and I'm sure the labor was going to be something around $10-15k. Long story short, the car that I had grown to love sat in my garage collecting dust until May 2016 when I could save up enough money to even begin to think about a repair. My indy took some classes and referred me one of his instructors, a guy well known in these circles that I didn't know at the time, who ultimately got me up and running again by November 2016.
- +2002 gets HID xenon headlights like the GT models
True, mine has xenons. Not sure if all 2002+ do?
- For some reason many Porsche fans think this generation is ugly but for me its actually the most iconic one. ( I remember my childhood doctor had a yellow Turbo. I was about 10yrs old back in 2000)
I work with some guys who have some really nice 993's and 997s, and a guy with a really cool 964. The purists can be ****** and comment on the "scrambled eggs" headlights, and I actually don't blame them, I'd rather have circles too! But the interiors of the older ones are wicked dated looking. Still cool, but as a daily driver, I like mine more. Even though it's still really 'analog', it doesn't feel as old as it is. I also like the wide-body look more than any of the other ones, except for the really old classics. I'd pay $28k for something that has scrambled eggs than the going prices for the other ones with cirlces anyday.
Per my budget and learning so far I'm focused on a 2002-2003 Carrera, Carrera 4 or Carrera 4S, Targa or Coupe. Manual trans. I like the 2002 headlights better and I never really liked convertibles plus I don't want to run risk of having leaks
Same here, never was a fan of convertibles, and my 02' C4S 6speed is really fun to drive. It never gets old.
Anyway my question are:
Can this car be as reliable, ease of maintenance, cost of repairs assuming DYI type of labor when compared to the Japanese options?
It's more expensive than a honda to repair, but less than some high-end car like the NSX, or some crazy Lexus. I had a Lexus as a daily driver before my P, and it was reliable, but the little things went out pretty often...water pump, some electronic issues, nothing major. But my 15 year old P has only been in the shop for 1 reason, albeit a very big and costly reason. (I do need new suspension though, but I'm still riding on OEM!) I drive through some hills with good corners daily, and I tend to rotate through tires no more than any other car I've driven. Less than any SUV or truck I've owned, for sure. But I don't track it. I've been through 3 sets of tires since I've owned it, and the last set were replaced because they flat-spotted sitting in my garage for 2 years, but the tread was still good.
Can this IMS issue be prevented, is it really not that difficult and relatively inexpensive to fix as I been told?
I tried to do exactly that when it was running fine, but apparently if there has already been some damage done, even with the update/upgrade kit, you still run a chance of having a failure as the metal particles slowly eat away internally, eventually causing problems. That said, it's often over diagnosed as the problem with the engine. Everyone always jumps to "IMS!" when there's an issue with a 996.
What year model 996 has tendency to be more reliable?
Deferring to the other expert's comments on this thread. I'm not sure.
Are the AWD (4 and 4S) model more complicated to work on or unreliable? Is the AWD worth it?
Mines obviously AWD. They're definitely heavier, and less fun in terms of purposely trying to oversteer. I've driven mine in the dirt and light snow and it definitely works, but you have to have the right tires on it to grip.
Any other issued I should know about? Please I can use as much info as I can get.
The problem I've had ever since I've had my car is that I love driving it (not in traffic with a stick- that sucks in any car). It's been my favorite car of many, and when it died, I was pretty devastated. If I didn't care, I could have easily sold it as a paperweight for parts, but it grew on me too much to just toss it, even if it was pricey to fix. I come from a "car family" background too, and I usually get over driving a car after 6 months, but for some reason, not this one. That's how they get you hooked! It's an old car too; it's weird.
I'm happily commuting daily in it with a rebuilt engine, which is even better than before. Now I'm really screwed if something happens again. If you get one, you'll eventually want to upgrade some things that can be pretty expensive. You'll want coilovers, probably want to find the ever-elusive PSE exhaust, and the list goes on....
Good Luck![/QUOTE]
Well, liked your post so much I wanted to second two parts of yours.
I, too, hoped to circumvent the IMS issue with an LN bearing replacement, but despite regular maintenance it failed 4 years later.
After much teeth grinding I threw in the $24k it cost to put in a new German factory sourced rebuilt engine .( dealer install )
I drive it year round and have used in snow ( seeing two of my business partners slide off the interstate in front of me ).... so ,from my experience, it seems the AWD helps.
Also , in 12 years of use my 16 year old convertible top has never leaked or squeaked.
So, for me, there still is no Substitute , as they say ...
#14
10-18-2017, 03:54 PM
While I generally agree that the '99 and '00 have a stronger IMS, being double row bearings, I wouldn't go so far as to say there are no problems.
From my admittedly not perfect research, the class action lawsuit did not cover these earlier years due to age/limitation of liability rather than anything to do with failure rates. In those years there was no turbo, no special editions, so buyers were limited to the 996 and 986 being that these were completely fresh designs. They sold a good many of them, by Porsche standards anyway. While later years arguably had a higher failure rate, there were more engine variations. My point is the pool of cars in '99 and '00 were ALL potential problems. They simply excluded possibly the largest pool to limit liability, which just so happened to be the oldest. They could argue if a car had lasted X years, it likely wasn't going to have the IMS problem. True or not.
I also think the failure rates are a little higher than 1% but not more than 5%. This is from many sources including Panamera, Jake Raby/Flat6 Innovations, Excellence, multiple forums, anecdotal, etc. Full disclosure is that I did the IMS upgrade on my '99 for peace of mind. Even a 5% chance of losing a ~$20K engine with slim to no chance of rebuild (major credit to Dharn55 for accomplishing a rebuild in his garage!) just did not sit well with me. Yes the IMS upgrade is expensive, but I saw as moderately expensive insurance.
YMMV
From my admittedly not perfect research, the class action lawsuit did not cover these earlier years due to age/limitation of liability rather than anything to do with failure rates. In those years there was no turbo, no special editions, so buyers were limited to the 996 and 986 being that these were completely fresh designs. They sold a good many of them, by Porsche standards anyway. While later years arguably had a higher failure rate, there were more engine variations. My point is the pool of cars in '99 and '00 were ALL potential problems. They simply excluded possibly the largest pool to limit liability, which just so happened to be the oldest. They could argue if a car had lasted X years, it likely wasn't going to have the IMS problem. True or not.
I also think the failure rates are a little higher than 1% but not more than 5%. This is from many sources including Panamera, Jake Raby/Flat6 Innovations, Excellence, multiple forums, anecdotal, etc. Full disclosure is that I did the IMS upgrade on my '99 for peace of mind. Even a 5% chance of losing a ~$20K engine with slim to no chance of rebuild (major credit to Dharn55 for accomplishing a rebuild in his garage
!) just did not sit well with me. Yes the IMS upgrade is expensive, but I saw as moderately expensive insurance. YMMV
You scare me!
"From my admittedly not perfect research, the class action lawsuit did not cover these earlier years due to age/limitation of liability rather than anything to do with failure rates"
From what rock did you crawl from? Do you make up this BS as you go? There are no IMS failures on these engines, nor Rear main oil leaks due to misaligned IMS bearings (2001 engines +)
SERIOUSLY???
Ask any Porsche mechanic at ANY Porsche Dealership. Most of them own at least one 98 or 99.
Last edited by Porsche99; 10-18-2017 at 04:22 PM.