The 333SP and even the old GT1 class - in the days of the Porsche GT1 - were more like road cars and they even had to homologate a few. Now it's just another sub-F1 race with a random set of rules that's nowhere near the pinnacle of motorsport and doesn't pertain to streetable cars either.

I can appreciate F1 and the GT1/2 categories of ALMS but the LMP classes are just like the junior olympics. If almost any F1 team gave up F1 and pumped their F1 budget into an LMP class, they'd win hands down.

 

Well maybe Porsche could be like Honda and Toyota to get into F1 only to suck the whole time.

And what does that make JCGT? Cars that cant cut it in LMS or ALMS or anywhere other than Japan? Let's see where else the GT-R and NSX and 350Z have tremendous racing heritage? I cant think of many.


Ferrari races in less series worldwide with less cars, and being small like Porsche are able to run an F1 team. Porsche happens to produce the most race cars of any manufacturer worldwide so I'd say their hands are pretty full.


And I suppose Nissan had had some involvement in F1, I must have missed that part. But of course they are great at JCGT racing against nothing but other nissans and a couple hondas.

Oh yeah, and how dare I forget, GROUP A!!!!!!!!!

 

this is not the first we've heard of these subjective points

 

Porsche showed they could dominate F1 also. Just ask Alain Prost or Nikki Lauda. They sure had a lot of fun in Formula 1 back in 1982 and 83. Porsche can do it all.

 

You've turned this into another little anti-Japanese car insecurity thing haven't you? This was never about playing Porsche off against Japan. I think a visit to the shrink is in order.

If you read carefully, you'd see that I praised cars like the Porsche GT1, and I specifically mentioned the Porsche GT1. Other notables would be the CLK-GTR and the McLaren F1. Back then top-flight Le Mans meant something as homologated versions were a competition requirement. LMP classes are just for people who suck too bad to compete in F1.

But then to try and equate motorsport success to the quality of road cars is a silly idea in the extreme. Renault anyone?

 

[quote=Z07;1791962]LMP classes are just for people who suck too bad to compete in F1.

quote]


Wrong, remember the V12 LMR? BMW ran that when they were one of the top teams in F1 back in the late 90's and early 2000's along with the Ferrari 333SP.

Just pointing that out.

 

I think saying any race series is for people that suck to much to be in F1 is not only disrespectful but also ignorant. Granted F1 is the top of the ladder now, or used to be for technology, but to me the great races are endurance racing. F1 is unbelievably expensive and is why they have limited participation. I am a F1 fan, but I also respect the people that put the effort into being competitive at what they can afford. I was really impressed this year how much the teams at Sebring stepped it up, that was A team racing, it's also closer to real world driving and more of a stepping stone to what you'll see on the street.

 

Comon now, dont try to play innocent now, we all know who that comment was targeting.

I'm not anti-japanese whatsoever, but I know who YOU represent, so just pointing out the obvious. To call any racing series a group of teams to weak to race in another series is pompous and obsurd. And for you to make such a arrogant statement should mean that you by some means have run an F1 team to bash someone for racing in a "lesser" series.

Your comment is dumb enough, it doesnt take much explaining to figure that out. For all the teams that started with ALMS in mind, non euro/asia based teams that WANT to race in the US, etc and had no desire to race F1, I guess they suck too bad as well even though they never wanted to race F1?

Comon man.

 

first - i joined this forum as i was just about to purchase a 911t (my wife loves them)... we were picking out colors and everything, and i get a call from my nissan dealer telling me i could pre-order a gt-r (i was also cross shopping an aston martin vantage, and a maserati gs).

porsche lost at least one sale to nissan.

i've owned two previous skylines (r32, and r33 gts-t, when i lived in japan), and i currently own an infiniti g35 (v35 skyline for some).
i've also owned a 996 c2 (waste of money - in retrospect).

i've compared the luxuries (using the term loosely) between a 996/997t and the r35. i like having the everyday features of the 30gb hdd (9.4gb for music) w/steering wheel controls for the 11 speaker bose system (hopefully much better than the current system offered for the infiniti), etc...

i love the manual transmission (dual-clutch - not auto) in the gt-r, having paddles just like the maserati and aston (but much, much faster shifting in the gt-r).

the gt-r's awd variable center differential (which i was familiar with for years) is very reassuring to drive everyday (to and from work with spirited corners - even on rainy/snowy days).

there are dozens more reasons (this is a porsche forum - so i'll leave that alone).

but for those who introduce the racing heritage of the porsche over the nissan, i've got two things:

#1 when the gt-r was first introduced in racing (2nd gen) it won 49 consecutive races (back in the 60's and 70's), was then discontinued and then reintroduced as the r32 model we know now - where it won 29 of 29 races and 5 titles in 5 years. then the r33 won the jtcc circuit 50 consecutive times. the r33 raced in the 24-hour le mans where the only car to beat it was the mclaren f1 gt (a quick search can validate this). the r34 had it's fair share of victories, and the r35 is already doing well. the racing program is well-defined (maybe a little better than lamborghini - who cares?)

#2 i'm not interested in buying heritage - i want to buy a car. as someone stated about the bugatti veyron (minus the eb110), where is the heritage?

for those that say the 996's are more luxurious (to justify the higher cost), i don't see any buttons on your steering wheel for your integrated bluetooth systems, so you could maybe sync up your photos of your kids for your screen saver on your navi system while flipping through the 6000 songs you downloaded into your dashboard.

i like these little 'thingys' that make my everyday drive - more comfortable.

(it's that reason i'm hoping the new v-spec actually comes with a roll cage, and removes all of these niceties, because then i won't envy it)

it's also nice to have ~500hp at your beckon call to 'merge' with your neighborhood civic (with an r34 bodykit), 6 piston brembos up front to catch me, and an advanced computer system to stop me when i'm getting stupid - and the ability to turn all of that off.

but i'm also looking forward to those extended weekends at virginia international raceway, where i can let my hair down - legally.

for the person who mentioned option packages - i pre-ordered mine fully loaded for $72.5k, (with the ipod mount) - not including the $2k mark-up.

and for the people who just didn't like the reviews by best motoring, car and driver, motor trend, 5th gear, etc... (where the 911 continues to get upstaged (slightly) - 911t and the 997 gt3), i'll wait and see for myself how this vehicle performs.

for those that like a more involved experience - traditional manual... this is not the vehicle for you. for those that enjoy technology, affordability, practicality, and performance - this vehicle deserves a serious look.

but for those that have enjoyed their porsches for years, ignore my statements. they are purely objective, and are disputable. when discussing these vehicles (along with c6 z06, gt3, gallardo (not superleggera), and even the m3 (which somehow doesn't even compare anymore?) - they are all beautiful cars, and i would enjoy driving any one of them.

as for ownership - my experience with the c2 was sub-par, and i hope my gt-r offers a more rewarding (and more reliable) experience. (i won't even bring up my bmw's)

 

^ great post.



to each their own...

 

GT-R is AWD which disqualifies it from most all racing series. It was built to be an affordable, high content, super-car for the masses. It was not built to be a competitive race car. The GT-R that ran super GT-500 in japan placing 1-2, while finishing 25 seconds ahead of the 3rd place finisher, is a 4.5L V8 with RWD. It is no more a GTR than the NASCAR Toyota entry is a Camry.

I personally love the GT-R not because of its relevance to other marque's out there. I just love underdogs. Nissan makes mass produced passenger cars sure; but they also make marine outboards, motorcycle engines, and industrial diesel engines. It is Nissan Motor Corporation. The GT-R is a halo to represent their engineering know-how. Most Halos loose money. The GT-R cannot be produced fast enough to sate demand. That is the story here, that is the hype. 70k buys you 130k+ performance. Corvette did that, the american way. Huge displacement V8, light weight construction. Pretty simple math, which is why I think some less open minds such as HC cling so desperately to the old philosophy of what ingredients make a premier sports car. Nissan took a very Japanese approach to engineering their vehicle. Sure its heavy, but its extremely aerodynamic. It is just out of the box thinking. I wish more people could appreciate this car on it's merits.

 

Why would you consider a company that makes over 3 million cars a year an underdog to a company that makes about 80,000 cars a year?

 

Ok. So when the question is whether Nissan can produce a vehicle that deserves the same respect as your precious Porsche, the redundant arguement is that the GTR is just a Nissan.. So what is the substance of this statement? That Porsche imbues its owners with some magical properties? I assumed(wrongly?) that Porsche, with it's rich heritage of racing success, and the fact that the company has never really built anything except high performance sports cars, was more suited and able to produce a superior sports car than Nissan, which in turn justified your position AGAINST a Nissan Sports car. Ok, I can live with that because it makes sense in a crudely logical way.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Then I say that I like Nissan as an underdog. Now the tune changes. Now it is Nissan manufacturers 3,000,000 cars a year vs Porsche's 80k. Lets ignore the fact that most of those vehicles are family sedans, sub compact sentras, versas, Mini-vans etc.




(fear this)


But I thought it was Porsche's rich heritage and racing prowess(and Nissan's lack thereof) that made it so much more legitimate than Nissan. If that is the tangible reason that Porsche is somehow better than Nissan from a performance/quality standpoint, why flip yourself when I bring up another completely objective opinion??

What is it? How does making 3million cars make Nissan less of an underdog? Budgets do not = success: This can be proven overwhelmingly.

 

I thought we'd already covered the fact that BMW only supply engines. You're still missing the point here. The LMP classes are pointless. Nothing like road cars and sub-standard as pure racing cars.

 

I understand that. Sauber only provides chassis . .

You're missing the point on LMP cars. They're not suppose to be like road cars. They're not called Le Mans Prototypes for nothing!