#2 i'm not interested in buying heritage - i want to buy a car. as someone stated about the bugatti veyron (minus the eb110), where is the heritage?

Perhaps if you did little digging you might find that the ideas of a man named Piech can provide an answer to your question.....

 

Which comment? You appear to be delusional. You have my sympathy.

I'm merely expressing a wish to see a reversion to the old GT1 days, when road-going versions were mandatory. Days that gave us the Porsche GT1 and McLaren F1 LM. Are there any road-going LMP cars? No. So what's the point in them? They're for racing only. As such they're just an F1-overflow car park. Endurance? Maybe if they were a bit faster they wouldn't have to drive for so damn long.




I'm afraid that I just stand for facts and keep underlining them when people try to ignore them. The current GT1 and GT2 classes are for highly race-orientated cars that nevertheless bare some resemblance to their road-going counterparts. I can appreciate that. I can appreciate WRC, I can appreciate JGTC, BTCC and German Touring Car championships also. But I'm not going to stand here and applaud teams who throw near-F1 budgets into winning LMP classes because they're too gutless to lay their cards on the table in F1.

A flow-chart would go something like this.

1. START: You need to advertise your product by being successful in motorsport.

2. Can you do it in F1? Yes ->Compete No, go to 3.

3. Are your road cars up to the task of competing in a race series, albeit in a highly modified state? Yes -> Compete. No, go to 4.

4. You lack the ability to compete in F1 and your road cars are unable to perform in other series -> Compete in perfectly random bath-tub series (LMP).

 

There's know way you can be serious about this, no way.

 

Why make a top-flight series with cars that are nothing like road cars and inferior to F1? What next? Another little series to catch LMP drop-outs. LMP is remedial F1. Face facts.

 

THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSE TO BE LIKE ROAD CARS.

What do you not understand about that?

LMP is not a remedial of F1. LMP goes back just as long as F1. Le Mans/ALMS LMP class cars have completely different intentions than F1. Also, AUDI and Porsche don't have to go in F1. They're so established in Le Mans racing they don't have to run F1. Face the facts.

 

Well put.

 

Of course. See how everybody flocks round the TV to watch LMP class every other weekend.

 

A lot of people in America. After all, it is called the American Le Mans Series.

 

I see. A bit like the baseball world series.

 

You would assume it was only Japanese cars...but you'd be highly incorrect.





and some nice Porsches as well:

 

That was a nice period to end this thread sportlux!

 

Once again, has everyone forgotten that Porsche proved they could build a dominating F1 motor? Approximately 900hp from a 1.5 liter motor. Not bad. Won the title two years in a row. Been there, done that. You want heritage, who was voted automobile engineer of the century? Speaking of F1, who pioneered mid-engine placement way back in the thirties?

 

I've never made the argument that Porsche is superior due to any kind of tradition or heritage. I don't know any of the racing history stats or wins or whatever. I don't follow ALMS, F1, etc. I don't spoon with the Hamilton "real doll" at nite.

What I know is that Porsche makes cars that are beyond what is "consumer" grade. The vehicles are overengineered, overspec'd, and most components have been designed to withstand severe duty usage. Since I have been hotrodding/tuning/repairing cars for over 20 yrs now I have not come across any mass produced cars that are built this way. Almost every "sports car" that has been built won't make an entire weekend on a track due to either under spec'd brakes, under spec'd cooling systems, under spec'd lubrication systems, or poor manufacturing tolerances. Behind the performance numbers are the little details that none of the magazine statisticians pay attention to:

Every BMW M car has inadequate brakes. Every Z06 has inadequate brakes (C6 is better). 1st 2-3 high speed stops will be exhilarating, the next 3 will be puzzling, then the 3 after that will be life endangering. Every Audi has weak drivelines prone to axle and differential failures. No manufacturer has withstood the real world endurance testing the way Porsche has. I can buy a reasonably maintained 10 year old Boxster, take it onto the track and expect it to perform without failure. Power steering won't boil over, brakes won't warp, synchro won't crunch, con rods won't punch out the crankcase. I track a 140k+ mile stock block 2.5l 944 turbo - 22 years old now - and can turn laps as fast as almost anyone out there all weekend long. More of the PCA club racecars are from the 70's and 80's than from the 90's - a testimony to their hardiness.

As far back as the mid 80's every Porsche down to the most entry model has come with 4 piston calipers and ventilated discs front and rear. This is something no M3 has had until present day, and even now the new E92 M3 brakes are still inadequate for more than a couple of hot laps. While every sports car has to wait for the aftermarket to make a kit to fit Brembos to their car, it has been standard on the Porsches for decades.

Porsche hasn't made a car with less than 7 quarts of oil capacity, even on its 4 cylinders. Compare that to a 6 quart small block Chevy or a 4 quart commuter. Almost every 911 takes 9 or more quarts of oil. The turbo 911 has NINE oil pumps in it to ensure adequate lubrication under extreme conditions - i.e. sustained high g cornering for more than 20 seconds. The oiling has defoaming systems built in to ensure constant feed of high pressure lubricant as well. With many sports cars you'd be lucky to find even a simple door flapper baffle in the oil pan. Turn >1.5g on a long oval and many other cars will see oil starvation.

Almost every system in the Porsches has auxiliary cooling - not just engine oil coolers, but tranny coolers, brake cooling ducts, etc. Porsche ensures that the car will perform just as well on the 20th lap as the 1st two.

Structurally as well, there are no cut corners. While other sportscars see mounting points bend or even fail under track duty - sway mounts, strut mounts, subframes - especially after fitting higher rate springs, dampeners, or sways there typically is no problem seen on the Porsches. Nothing has to be reinforced because it was engineered already to encounter those increased loads. The most basic 911 shares the same tub as the highest end Gt3RS or even Cup Car.

So you ask who is the underdog? Nissan is more of a Walmart or Harbor Freight. Their focus is on volume. With a manufacturing capacity of >3 million cars their development costs for sports cars can be spread out in ways that Porsche could not dream of until recently. Nissan can purchase from subcontractors and manufacture their own components with an economy of scale unobtainable by Porsche. The question is not whether Nissan is the underdog in the supercar game today, but rather why Nissan would ever be in such a position anyway since it has has the resources to be in the game for a long time - perhaps due to pure indifference or incompetence? If I was an enthusiast I would not find much solace in either possibility.

It is the same phenomenon seen in many other venues as well. I have been building and racing mountain bikes for years. Many of the Taiwanese bike companies can make a cheaper, more feature laden bike than someone like Litespeed. The bike may be 27 speeds and with disc brakes and have lockout capabilities on the rear suspension but the componentry will almost be less durable. I'd rather have 21 or 24 speed Shimano XTR than 27/30 speed Alivio.

 

ZO7 how do you always manage to get into these pissing matches with long time 6speed members on every thread you subscribe to? I thought the mod already addressed this with you the last time you were reinstated after your ban? What makes you such an expert on racing anyways?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that only Japanese cars have been allowed to run in the GT500?