Springs and Tracking
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Springs and Tracking
I just did my first track event at Poconos raceway, had a lot of fun. I'm interesting in getting my car lowered, but I dont want to swap out the entire suspension. Are springs a good alternative?
Basically are springs just for looks, or will they improve my handling as well?
Basically are springs just for looks, or will they improve my handling as well?
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If you don't feel like the cost of coil overs I've been investigating the same question. Seems to be the case that a combination of stiffer sway bars, solid motor mounts (as opposed to the OEM which are fluid filled) and upgraded toe links should provide a meaningful upgrade. Couple that with a new four wheel alignment and should offer a better track set-up - or at least that is advice I've gotten from Farnbacherloles which seems sensible. I'll probably go ahead and do that.
Would also note the TT is mega sensitive to tire pressure on the track. I've got three track days on the car and am still trying to figure out the best set-up.
Would also note the TT is mega sensitive to tire pressure on the track. I've got three track days on the car and am still trying to figure out the best set-up.
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Although I don't have personal experience with them, GMG offers springs for the 997TT with the highest progressive rate...followed by TechArt. I'm sure others will chime in.
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I would like the setup to last for three years, along with track time its also my DD. So overall I would need whatever I get to hold up for approx 50,000-60,000 miles with about 25 track events in three years time.
When I put it this way it seems that maybe I should be going with coilovers. Can anyone give me a heads up on the cost for the Bilstein PSS for the turbo with the EDC?
When I put it this way it seems that maybe I should be going with coilovers. Can anyone give me a heads up on the cost for the Bilstein PSS for the turbo with the EDC?
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I notice that the 2 tuned Turbo's that recently received rave reviews in Excellence Magazine, one by GMG and one by Champion Werks1, both use lowering spring, not coilover. I am considering the GMG route http://www.gmgracing.com/porsche_suspension.shtml
For racing, there might be other coilovers that are worth looking into besides the Bilstein (Moton, JRZ, etc.). Check out this old thread, the more things change...
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...ad.php?t=11386
For racing, there might be other coilovers that are worth looking into besides the Bilstein (Moton, JRZ, etc.). Check out this old thread, the more things change...
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...ad.php?t=11386
Springs will last just fine...shocks may wear sooner, but it depends on the beating they get, and which springs you use.
Although I don't have personal experience with them, GMG offers springs for the 997TT with the highest progressive rate...followed by TechArt. I'm sure others will chime in.
Although I don't have personal experience with them, GMG offers springs for the 997TT with the highest progressive rate...followed by TechArt. I'm sure others will chime in.
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Hrm.. now Im more confused. 
Anyone go from springs to a coilover setup and want to share exactly why?
Reading that thread the one thing I did notice is that it may be good to go in steps when it comes to suspension. Im certainly still getting used to the car so I would like to maintain its overall characteristics just enhance them.
Anyone go from springs to a coilover setup and want to share exactly why?
Reading that thread the one thing I did notice is that it may be good to go in steps when it comes to suspension. Im certainly still getting used to the car so I would like to maintain its overall characteristics just enhance them.
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If you don't feel like the cost of coil overs I've been investigating the same question. Seems to be the case that a combination of stiffer sway bars, solid motor mounts (as opposed to the OEM which are fluid filled) and upgraded toe links should provide a meaningful upgrade. Couple that with a new four wheel alignment and should offer a better track set-up - or at least that is advice I've gotten from Farnbacherloles which seems sensible. I'll probably go ahead and do that.
Would also note the TT is mega sensitive to tire pressure on the track. I've got three track days on the car and am still trying to figure out the best set-up.
Would also note the TT is mega sensitive to tire pressure on the track. I've got three track days on the car and am still trying to figure out the best set-up.
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I don't track my car and springs work great . I have the Techart springs and have considered adding the coilcovers now that i am upgrading the HP . One step at a time .
If I tracked the car I would want to have the choice of dialing in . The damptonics seem to be the board favorite . Someone posted that he liked the Techart which are expensive.
I am leaning towards the Techart for only one reason -- my aerokit is Techart and I would want to retain consistency.
If I tracked the car I would want to have the choice of dialing in . The damptonics seem to be the board favorite . Someone posted that he liked the Techart which are expensive.
I am leaning towards the Techart for only one reason -- my aerokit is Techart and I would want to retain consistency.
Last edited by yrralis1; May 4, 2008 at 10:07 PM.
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Not sure if you are familiar with the terms and where you got confused, but let me try. Pardon me if you already know (ignore my post 
):
The stock suspension is a coilover (a spring over a damper).
1. You could replace the whole thing with an after-market coilover, such as Bilstein. Other choices are Moton, JRZ, Ohlins, JC Cross, etc., some of which are supposed to be "better" than Bilstein particularly if you are to track the car. For street usage, I don't know if they are better, maybe some of the pro's on this forum could give their opinions.
The Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics that most people use in this forum allows you to lower the car. Is it stiffer than stock? I think so but am not sure (Does anyone know how the Bilstein's spring rates compare to stock's? I called Bilstein and got their spring rates, but can't find the ones for stock.). While PSS9 has 9 levels of damping rate, the PSS10 Damptronics as installed in the Turbo with full PASM function does NOT allow this adjustment fine tuning, AFAIK.
2. Or you could replace just the spring. The spring could be shorter (to lower the car) or stiffer (to stiffen the suspension), or it could be both (lower and stiffen). This is the GMG spring that we were talking about.
Just replacing the spring is not desirable since the damper is designed for the spring it comes with, not for a replacement spring that is shorter and/or stiffer. I read about premature damper failure but don't know if this is fact. It is therefore surprising to find that 2 Turbo's that received rave reviews in Excellence both use the second approach, replacing spring only. I called Champion and was told by whoever that answered the phone that they find this approach to have more grip. Don't know how/why but bottom line is you can't argue with the result: a rave by an excellent reviewer who is a GT3 diehard.
http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php...rue#Post426711
What's amusing is that there are tons of info on our very own 996 Turbo forum on suspension mod. We don't have to go far for basic "research". The more things change...
):The stock suspension is a coilover (a spring over a damper).
1. You could replace the whole thing with an after-market coilover, such as Bilstein. Other choices are Moton, JRZ, Ohlins, JC Cross, etc., some of which are supposed to be "better" than Bilstein particularly if you are to track the car. For street usage, I don't know if they are better, maybe some of the pro's on this forum could give their opinions.
The Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics that most people use in this forum allows you to lower the car. Is it stiffer than stock? I think so but am not sure (Does anyone know how the Bilstein's spring rates compare to stock's? I called Bilstein and got their spring rates, but can't find the ones for stock.). While PSS9 has 9 levels of damping rate, the PSS10 Damptronics as installed in the Turbo with full PASM function does NOT allow this adjustment fine tuning, AFAIK.
2. Or you could replace just the spring. The spring could be shorter (to lower the car) or stiffer (to stiffen the suspension), or it could be both (lower and stiffen). This is the GMG spring that we were talking about.
Just replacing the spring is not desirable since the damper is designed for the spring it comes with, not for a replacement spring that is shorter and/or stiffer. I read about premature damper failure but don't know if this is fact. It is therefore surprising to find that 2 Turbo's that received rave reviews in Excellence both use the second approach, replacing spring only. I called Champion and was told by whoever that answered the phone that they find this approach to have more grip. Don't know how/why but bottom line is you can't argue with the result: a rave by an excellent reviewer who is a GT3 diehard.
http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php...rue#Post426711
What's amusing is that there are tons of info on our very own 996 Turbo forum on suspension mod. We don't have to go far for basic "research". The more things change...
Hrm.. now Im more confused.
Anyone go from springs to a coilover setup and want to share exactly why?
Reading that thread the one thing I did notice is that it may be good to go in steps when it comes to suspension. Im certainly still getting used to the car so I would like to maintain its overall characteristics just enhance them.
Anyone go from springs to a coilover setup and want to share exactly why?
Reading that thread the one thing I did notice is that it may be good to go in steps when it comes to suspension. Im certainly still getting used to the car so I would like to maintain its overall characteristics just enhance them.
Last edited by cannga; May 4, 2008 at 09:54 PM.
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Can --I have not yet driven any other 997tt but mine . Thus my knowledge base comes from reading the forums and taking wuth the technicians. Multiple shops have as many opinions as the individual posters .
I can share this --my Techart springs are quite good into the corners but I am not on the track . They were not too expensive either . I like the ride height of the Techart (front lip neurosis in city driving) as it is not as low as some of the other springs like the H and R setup in Excellence . As well I read the link you posted but some of it was trying to balance the Gt3 setting into a street 997tt . That level of automotive physics is not where I am headed with this car . I did save the stock springs too but did not like the stock ride.
For my needs I am fine yet I tuned in on this thread mostly because I am jumping to 700 Hp and I may have to change the suspension to accomodate this .
As per the technical specifics of how different coilcovers operate with PASM I don;t know and don't want to post a guess . What I do know that the coilcover allows the driver to set the car for different types of driving and that the PSS10 can bring the car back to stock height .
I'm here as you are --to learn what works best . I'll listen to all the posters as well as the various shops who post and in the end the decision is made when I write the check to pay for the mod .
I can share this --my Techart springs are quite good into the corners but I am not on the track . They were not too expensive either . I like the ride height of the Techart (front lip neurosis in city driving) as it is not as low as some of the other springs like the H and R setup in Excellence . As well I read the link you posted but some of it was trying to balance the Gt3 setting into a street 997tt . That level of automotive physics is not where I am headed with this car . I did save the stock springs too but did not like the stock ride.
For my needs I am fine yet I tuned in on this thread mostly because I am jumping to 700 Hp and I may have to change the suspension to accomodate this .
As per the technical specifics of how different coilcovers operate with PASM I don;t know and don't want to post a guess . What I do know that the coilcover allows the driver to set the car for different types of driving and that the PSS10 can bring the car back to stock height .
I'm here as you are --to learn what works best . I'll listen to all the posters as well as the various shops who post and in the end the decision is made when I write the check to pay for the mod .
Last edited by yrralis1; May 4, 2008 at 10:39 PM.
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Sorry if my other post appeared to be critical of your choice of using spring! I didn't mean to be; in fact I am considering going that route myself since I don't track the car at all. (Cross posting on rennteam following.)
BTW, both GMG and Werks1 replace a couple of simple components in the suspension (Rear upper control arms and toe link, front thrust arm bushing, a arm monoball, less complicated than you think, really!) with cup parts for better steering and handling feedback (stock uses rubber at linkage point, cup doesn't, is the basic principle). Reading old posts on this subject, I am beginning to feel that this IS a must. (Just kidding, no flame please.) In other words, I think a 2 step upgrade would go like this:
1. Lowering spring or coilover plus sway bar.
2. Cup components, about 4. Cost "only" a few hundred dollars each.
http://www.gmgracing.com/porsche_suspension.shtml
BTW, both GMG and Werks1 replace a couple of simple components in the suspension (Rear upper control arms and toe link, front thrust arm bushing, a arm monoball, less complicated than you think, really!) with cup parts for better steering and handling feedback (stock uses rubber at linkage point, cup doesn't, is the basic principle). Reading old posts on this subject, I am beginning to feel that this IS a must. (Just kidding, no flame please.) In other words, I think a 2 step upgrade would go like this:
1. Lowering spring or coilover plus sway bar.
2. Cup components, about 4. Cost "only" a few hundred dollars each.
http://www.gmgracing.com/porsche_suspension.shtml
Can --I have not yet driven any other 997tt but mine . Thus my knowledge base comes from reading the forums and taking wuth the technicians. Multiple shops have as many opinions as the individual posters .
I can share this --my Techart springs are quite good into the corners but I am not on the track . They were not too expensive either . I like the ride height of the Techart (front lip neurosis in city driving) as it is not as low as some of the other springs like the H and R setup in Excellence . As well I read the link you posted but some of it was trying to balance the Gt3 setting into a street 997tt . That level of automotive physics is not where I am headed with this car . I did save the stock springs too but did not like the stock ride.
For my needs I am fine yet I tuned in on this thread mostly because I am jumping to 700 Hp and I may have to change the suspension to accomodate this .
As per the technical specifics of how different coilcovers operate with PASM I don;t know and don't want to post a guess . What I do know that the coilcover allows the driver to set the car for different types of driving and that the PSS10 can bring the car back to stock height .
I'm here as you are --to learn what works best . I'll listen to all the posters as well as the various shops who post and in the end the decision is made when I write the check to pay for the mod .
I can share this --my Techart springs are quite good into the corners but I am not on the track . They were not too expensive either . I like the ride height of the Techart (front lip neurosis in city driving) as it is not as low as some of the other springs like the H and R setup in Excellence . As well I read the link you posted but some of it was trying to balance the Gt3 setting into a street 997tt . That level of automotive physics is not where I am headed with this car . I did save the stock springs too but did not like the stock ride.
For my needs I am fine yet I tuned in on this thread mostly because I am jumping to 700 Hp and I may have to change the suspension to accomodate this .
As per the technical specifics of how different coilcovers operate with PASM I don;t know and don't want to post a guess . What I do know that the coilcover allows the driver to set the car for different types of driving and that the PSS10 can bring the car back to stock height .
I'm here as you are --to learn what works best . I'll listen to all the posters as well as the various shops who post and in the end the decision is made when I write the check to pay for the mod .
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Just remember that aftermarket bushings will definately help perforamce, but can be quite noisy.
I think coilovers ar the way to go. I currently have Carpgraphic springs on stock shocks. I find the TT suspension to be too soft. IMO. I will be swapping out the springs for coilovers...
I think coilovers ar the way to go. I currently have Carpgraphic springs on stock shocks. I find the TT suspension to be too soft. IMO. I will be swapping out the springs for coilovers...