Sure data is always good when there is a 12% variance.

 

Add in the standard deviation factor for a sample basis of...

ONE !!!

 

This thread gets very technical at times. I actually feel like I have learned a great deal about the mechanics and techniques involved in racing cars by participating in this thread. I feel like I have gone through the classroom insturction and am now ready to get out on the track with an instructor. We give each other a little heck now and then, but in all I think we are having fun.

 

If you would like to try a Driver's Education Event, Chin would be a good place to start.
They are at Sebring about every other month or so.

Chin is a little more expensive than some of the other clubs...

but you will get A LOT MORE TRACK TIME and likely get a better instructor.

Many of us Z06'ers instuct for them, and Chin also has instructors who drive Porsche's.

Their web site is: www.chinmotorsports.com

Also check the internet web for information on preparing for D E and what you can expect at the track.

BMW also puts on a good event especially Peachtree BMW at Road Atlanta.

If you want aditional info... send me a PM.

Cya @ the track,

Trumper

 

The AWD control makes the difference?

While I agree a skilled driver should be faster with stability control turned off, what I contend is that the GT-Rs AWD remains variable during 10/10ths driving. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The electronically controlled clutch pack is controlled via a computer getting input from multiple sensors (wheel speed, steering position, throttle and yaw-rate sensors). This is NOT stability control.

I believe the Evo X has this and if I'm not mistaken, the benefit was demonstrated on Top Gear test of Prodrive's AWD experimental car.

This allows for faster lap times and is actually a driver's aid. One reason AWD isn't allowed in many race series.

My apologies if this has been covered but I think it's a prime example of having an inherent driver's aid vs. a recovery system like Stability Control.

 

You are making my point (I think). All these systems are BOTH a driver's aid AND a safety system. In theory, they can make even a pro driver faster if calibrated correctly.

In the case of AWD, I actually think the TT's center diff is fancier--- I think it is fully electronic. The GT-R documentation makes it sound less fancy, but I'm not sure.

Point is that some here think AWD is in the category of a bad system. Anything that makes me go around the track faster AND safer is a good thing.

 

Chrisn - the points about if calibrated correctly would make a pro driver faster is correct. If calibrated for less and less input from the computer

Driver's aid is for the 95% of the people out there and its not for the 5% who can drive from 8/10 to 10/10th of their cars. Racers push their cars to the edge and they don't want the electronic devices to kick in at moments they are wanting that push. They like less intrusive systems as the GT2, BMW M Modes(CSL), Ferrari Race, etc.

I would still like to know why Nissan drives the Ring with VDC disabled?

 

I'll bet there are 3-4 spots where the car gets light and gives too much wheel spin at WOT. I'll bet the net diff is <5 seconds around track. Understand that when REALLY racing that is a lifetime, but most people (even decent drivers) would leave on in case they screw up. Even pro drivers lose it from time to time-- that's why it is called 10/10ths.If you have proper safety gear and you are not paying for the car-- who cares I guess.

My point about being FASTER was a bit silly/theorhetical-- but if you allowed very detailed tuning, it would have to make you faster. It's just another variable that you can optimize.

Agree that in real world, they make pro drivers slower in street cars. But, for the good systems, not by much.

BTW, I think MDM ("//M-Mode") is MORE intrusive than VDC or PSM in sprt mode-- at least on an M5. Perhaps in CSL they dial it way back. I wish all cars had what that souped up Lotus has (the 240R?)--- a dial with an analog setting of how much slip angle you want before intervention.

-Chris

 

The problem that you arent considering is that an AWD car can never be as light as a comparable RWD car. Not only that you add drag, and power understeer challenges to dial out, and yes the GT-R plows to contrary to the fanboys that were here proclaiming otherwise when it was released.

Add to that the fact that as you add more traction to the wheels (I.E. slicks), it over-rules AWD's advantage. The only place AWD will have an advantage is in adverse conditions and on factory cars without traction. The mistakes racing series made was giving the AWD cars an advantage by being able to add components (AWD) without the weight penalties that accompanied them, then once they finally did, they were racing in europe where the conditions change almost by the day and the AWD cars won on consistency in adverse conditions.

But you wont find any race drivers that prefer TC, and stability control, or even AWD (except steve millen).

 

Thanks Trumper! I actually do plan to enroll in a DE event at some point. Thanks for the offer to PM. I do need some more info, so I will check in with you soon. Many thanks.
Tony

 

I was looking through some "CAR" magazines I had purchased. In the August 2006 issue on page 99 there is an article about the Porsche 959 by Gavin Green, one of the writers for that magazine. He was referring to an article he had written about that car 19 years ago, which would be 22 years ago now. He indicated that in it's time, the 959 was a technical tour de force, pioneering variably split computer-controlled 4x4 and computer controlled damping stiffness. It was the fastest car of it's day, doing 0-60 in 3.7 seconds and topping out at 197 mph. He then added that the Porsche purists had a problem with the car because it wasn't as much fun to drive as a 911. The 911 purists complained that all that new-fangled electro-trickery took away the animal, and did not challenge the good drivers and intimidate the poor ones as the 911 was famous for. The author said that the 959 did not wag it's tail, oversteer outrageously, or require constant steering correction to extract big speeds. He said the 959 was a "point and squirt" supercar that was marvellously efficient and enormously fast, but it was also a touch "soulless" and more "engineering showcase than drivers delight". He said the 959 was the car that begat all the electronically controlled engineering-rich supercars of today, but the 911 purists did not like the car because it forgot to involve the bloke behind the wheel. This article was written a good two years before all the arguments we are having about the 911 vs. the GTR, but I think it explains why Porsche did not develop a car with all the computer control that characterizes the GTR.

 

Bet you a dollar that, where allowed, every racer would use each of those if legal. Not in the street car variant, but tweaked/calibrated race cars. Exception might be F1 where I think they would pass on AWD. Downforce is the key there.

Hey-- guess what-- F1 currently allows Traction Control.

http://www.f1technical.net/articles/7

Do you think any teams omit it or turn it off? I think not.

Why did they allow it after banning it? According the linked article it is because teams wantd so badly to use it that they "cheated" by simulating TC in their ECU software mappings.

How do you explain that?

Oops. Looks like FIA banned it for 2008 by using standard ECU software. Must be to make the drivers faster, no? Rules usialy ban things that people don't like because it makes them lose races, right?

Looks like ALMS also bans AWD and TC (except LMP1 allows ECU-style TC). Why ban things that drivers don't want and that make you slower?

 

Explains why the 959 was a flash in the pan, and not very appreciated. Explains why they are readiliy available on Ebay for $20K.

Also explains why it didn't form the basis for the 993 and all future 911s, especially the 4/4S/TT class cars....

Dude: all Porsche cars have all the same controls as the GT-R (obviously AWD stuff only in the AWD cars). Only difference is that the GT-R does it BETTER. Explain again why that is bad?

 

The author said it , not me, although I agree. The 911 purists wanted a car that challenged them, not one that you could point and shoot and do the skill stuff for you.

 

For maybe one or two laps