Track Upgrade Input
The difference isnt necessarily the rate(although it is higher) it is the fact that it is a linear spring and not progressive. Mike, our owner also reconfigures the PASM controller to compensate for the change in rate.
Casey
Casey
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 970
From: Brooklyn, NY
Rep Power: 65
I went down this path and ended up with:
Seats, GMG roll bar + harnesses
Front GT3 adjustable control arms (watch out for pushing more than -2 camber or you will pop out of your front diff), adjustable rear toe links (absolute must if you lower and track the car, otherwise your tire wear will be 2x-3x worse than need be), gmg adjustable sways, bilstien damptronics, brembo rotors + pagid yellows.
After running this for the past year here's what I can tell you, you wont overcome the understeer in slow corners, you will be faster than GT3s because of top end power and now being able to keep up better speed in turns.
For next year I decided I wanted to get away from the TT so I bought a Lotus ExigeS ($42,000 07 w/5500 miles). I havent had a chance to try it on the track because of winter, but I can tell you this is definitely a better choice for me. It will cost you half as much to run because of consumables that are half price (rotors, pads, tires). While you wont get top end power you will be able to pull faster speeds in turns, and nothing I've driven comes close to it.
With the amount of money you are about to shell out for parts, and considering how much you will shell out to run the car on the track, you may be better off getting something thats easier to run like an Exige.
Seats, GMG roll bar + harnesses
Front GT3 adjustable control arms (watch out for pushing more than -2 camber or you will pop out of your front diff), adjustable rear toe links (absolute must if you lower and track the car, otherwise your tire wear will be 2x-3x worse than need be), gmg adjustable sways, bilstien damptronics, brembo rotors + pagid yellows.
After running this for the past year here's what I can tell you, you wont overcome the understeer in slow corners, you will be faster than GT3s because of top end power and now being able to keep up better speed in turns.
For next year I decided I wanted to get away from the TT so I bought a Lotus ExigeS ($42,000 07 w/5500 miles). I havent had a chance to try it on the track because of winter, but I can tell you this is definitely a better choice for me. It will cost you half as much to run because of consumables that are half price (rotors, pads, tires). While you wont get top end power you will be able to pull faster speeds in turns, and nothing I've driven comes close to it.
With the amount of money you are about to shell out for parts, and considering how much you will shell out to run the car on the track, you may be better off getting something thats easier to run like an Exige.
Thread Starter
|
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 265
From: Indianapolis
Rep Power: 28
Raiyu, thanks for the input. I think I am still very much hooked on the TT so don't see a lotus in my future. I will very likely go the TPC Stage 3+ that Josh has written about. As to the response about 18" wheels with Hoosier's, I guess I don't understand the need for 18"...I do understand the need for Hoosier R6 tires as they are fantastic.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,181
From: FL West Coast
Rep Power: 117
997TT track time
The present discussion on tracking 90% and DD 10% is just the opposite of me.
I have an '07 997TT with the RUF RTurbo package and I would like to improve track performance but not to the degree that I hate it on the street.
I see one person suggested using more rubber on 18" wheels and I am looking at that but some people have told me that it could cause problems with various control systems (PASM, ABS).
Any advice for me? Thanks.
I have an '07 997TT with the RUF RTurbo package and I would like to improve track performance but not to the degree that I hate it on the street.
I see one person suggested using more rubber on 18" wheels and I am looking at that but some people have told me that it could cause problems with various control systems (PASM, ABS).
Any advice for me? Thanks.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,989
From: Texas
Rep Power: 117
What suspension do you have on the Rturbo? I went with a set of Bilsteins and a rear Gt2 sway bar, as recommended by Ruf. This setup combined with R compounds (N spec MPSC) or similar (Bridgestone RE11) is very good at the track and also rides well on the street. With the limited number of track days that I can do anymore this is an outstanding suspension for a true dual purpose car IMO. There are lots of other changes that will make it even better on the track but it will be a compromised car on the street. As to the 18" Hoosier R6s, they work great on the track, just make sure you get the correct sizes front to back to maintain the factory ratio. A board member ECLOU has this exact info, send him a pm.
Last edited by TT Gasman; Dec 5, 2009 at 11:04 PM.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,181
From: FL West Coast
Rep Power: 117
ECLOU,
I understand that you are using 18" wheels on your 997TT with success.
I was thinking of going this route because it is easier getting R compounds in 18" than in 19" but one of the guys at my local dealer said he 'vaguely remembered' that it caused a problem with PASM or something in another customer's car.
TT Gasman said I had to make sure to get the right size tires but referred me to you as he thought you were using 18" with much success.
The suspension is stock. Since this is primarily a street car I don't want to go overboard. Gasman recommended some Bilsteins (didn't say which ones) and a GT2 rear sway bar. That all sounds reasonable.
My car also has PCCB and I am uneducated about offset in 18" wheels.
Any insight is greatly appreciated.
I understand that you are using 18" wheels on your 997TT with success.
I was thinking of going this route because it is easier getting R compounds in 18" than in 19" but one of the guys at my local dealer said he 'vaguely remembered' that it caused a problem with PASM or something in another customer's car.
TT Gasman said I had to make sure to get the right size tires but referred me to you as he thought you were using 18" with much success.
The suspension is stock. Since this is primarily a street car I don't want to go overboard. Gasman recommended some Bilsteins (didn't say which ones) and a GT2 rear sway bar. That all sounds reasonable.
My car also has PCCB and I am uneducated about offset in 18" wheels.
Any insight is greatly appreciated.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,518
From: Corpus Christi, Texas
Rep Power: 351
I would just run the N spec R cmpds that were designed for your car...in 19s. I'm talking about the N rated MSCs, they will be more than enough for your needs.
Doug is right about the bilsteins, they only make one model for the pasm equiped turbos in the US, the damptronics. I would highly recommend an adjustable sway with the coilovers.
Doug is right about the bilsteins, they only make one model for the pasm equiped turbos in the US, the damptronics. I would highly recommend an adjustable sway with the coilovers.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,028
From: Houston
Rep Power: 201
ECLOU,
I understand that you are using 18" wheels on your 997TT with success.
I was thinking of going this route because it is easier getting R compounds in 18" than in 19" but one of the guys at my local dealer said he 'vaguely remembered' that it caused a problem with PASM or something in another customer's car.
TT Gasman said I had to make sure to get the right size tires but referred me to you as he thought you were using 18" with much success.
The suspension is stock. Since this is primarily a street car I don't want to go overboard. Gasman recommended some Bilsteins (didn't say which ones) and a GT2 rear sway bar. That all sounds reasonable.
My car also has PCCB and I am uneducated about offset in 18" wheels.
Any insight is greatly appreciated.
I understand that you are using 18" wheels on your 997TT with success.
I was thinking of going this route because it is easier getting R compounds in 18" than in 19" but one of the guys at my local dealer said he 'vaguely remembered' that it caused a problem with PASM or something in another customer's car.
TT Gasman said I had to make sure to get the right size tires but referred me to you as he thought you were using 18" with much success.
The suspension is stock. Since this is primarily a street car I don't want to go overboard. Gasman recommended some Bilsteins (didn't say which ones) and a GT2 rear sway bar. That all sounds reasonable.
My car also has PCCB and I am uneducated about offset in 18" wheels.
Any insight is greatly appreciated.
Since your car has PCCB, the only 18" wheels you will be able to run are CCW. If you call CCW they can make you the perfect offset 18" wheels for your car for ~$3k.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,028
From: Houston
Rep Power: 201
When it comes to road racing, we prefer to go with the 18" wheels. There are several reasons for this decision.
The one that effects most people is cost. Buying new tires for 19" wheels is dramatically more expensive than buying 18' tires. The same goes for the wheels, should you break one on track they will be mighty expensive to replace. We have fallen in love with these OZ Racing wheels (alleggerita/ultraleggera) because they are inexpensive, very lightweight, and look pretty good.
However, there is a far more important reason than just cost to go with an 18" wheel and tire combo. An 18" tires provides a much larger side wall than a 19" tire. The amount of tire side wall you have can be a determining factor to your on track performance. This is because the side wall of the tire actually functions as part of your suspension. The side wall can be considered an extra spring. When we do Tire Testing with Hoosier, one of the things Mike is looking for is a tire with the proper side wall spring weight to get the performance he desires. He can specify that he wants a tire with a 400lb, 500lb, 600lb, etc. side wall to achieve a tire that will be fast, provide plenty of grip, will wear consistently, and provide the longest life. This is our primary reason for going with 18" wheels. If you pay attention to what pro racing teams are using you would most certainly notice that they are using smaller wheels with bigger tires, not bigger wheels with skinny little rubber bands around them.
When you start considering using a more serious tire like a Hoosier, or a Michelin full slick, there are a few more things that you need to consider. These tires generate a far greater amount of grip with the road surface. This increase in cornering grip WILL amount to much greater wear on nearly your entire vehicle. All of your suspension components will be put under phenomenal stress; brakes and wheels will also wear much faster. This is because you are starting to subject your vehicle to stress more similar to a professional race car. This is the reason that pro race teams always have to rebuild their vehicles and are always replacing various components throughout the car.
If you are considering going over to some form of slicks, you will most certainly want to look at the costs of replacing parts more frequently than if you were just running street tires.
Road racing is an incredible sport to participate in, however the more serious you become, the greater the costs become. Finding the perfect balance between fun and wiping out the bank accounts can be tricky for some, so if there are questions about what level of suspension modification you need, to experience the highest amount of fun, feel free to contact us here at TPCRacing, and we will help you develop a setup that best suits your individual needs.
The one that effects most people is cost. Buying new tires for 19" wheels is dramatically more expensive than buying 18' tires. The same goes for the wheels, should you break one on track they will be mighty expensive to replace. We have fallen in love with these OZ Racing wheels (alleggerita/ultraleggera) because they are inexpensive, very lightweight, and look pretty good.
However, there is a far more important reason than just cost to go with an 18" wheel and tire combo. An 18" tires provides a much larger side wall than a 19" tire. The amount of tire side wall you have can be a determining factor to your on track performance. This is because the side wall of the tire actually functions as part of your suspension. The side wall can be considered an extra spring. When we do Tire Testing with Hoosier, one of the things Mike is looking for is a tire with the proper side wall spring weight to get the performance he desires. He can specify that he wants a tire with a 400lb, 500lb, 600lb, etc. side wall to achieve a tire that will be fast, provide plenty of grip, will wear consistently, and provide the longest life. This is our primary reason for going with 18" wheels. If you pay attention to what pro racing teams are using you would most certainly notice that they are using smaller wheels with bigger tires, not bigger wheels with skinny little rubber bands around them.
When you start considering using a more serious tire like a Hoosier, or a Michelin full slick, there are a few more things that you need to consider. These tires generate a far greater amount of grip with the road surface. This increase in cornering grip WILL amount to much greater wear on nearly your entire vehicle. All of your suspension components will be put under phenomenal stress; brakes and wheels will also wear much faster. This is because you are starting to subject your vehicle to stress more similar to a professional race car. This is the reason that pro race teams always have to rebuild their vehicles and are always replacing various components throughout the car.
If you are considering going over to some form of slicks, you will most certainly want to look at the costs of replacing parts more frequently than if you were just running street tires.
Road racing is an incredible sport to participate in, however the more serious you become, the greater the costs become. Finding the perfect balance between fun and wiping out the bank accounts can be tricky for some, so if there are questions about what level of suspension modification you need, to experience the highest amount of fun, feel free to contact us here at TPCRacing, and we will help you develop a setup that best suits your individual needs.
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 141
From: New York
Rep Power: 33
idk guys. imo the problem with tracking a modified tt is u don't learn how to drive on a track properly. i can lap limerock easily in the 1min 2sec to 1min4sec all day long at 8/10ths and it's pretty fun, but i'll be the first to admit i prob wouldn't be able to match the 58sec laps the koni guys throw down with a 325hp c2 vs my 600hp tt if i jumped into one of their cars. from what i've learned in 2 years so far is that speed on a track means u brake as gently and late as possible and find grip from the correct slip angles on the tires and by altering your line until u find the best solution that sets u up for the next corner. i can tell u that i don't really feel all that feedback in my tt and it's too expensive to take to the limit in both consumables and a possible mistake to try so i've decided to move on to a 996 cup car. unfort i proved my own point by thinking i was a fast driver (haha) and strapped into a 997 cup at my home track, monticello, this year. i could barely heel toe the beast, and spun on the first lap cause i got on the gas too hard before a tight apex like i normally did in my tt, flat spotting the tires and nicking a gear cog in the process (VERY expensive lap!). i know i sound like a hack, but i've driven many cars out there and have taken out some of our club pros and pca buddies who can vouch for my skill level in the tt so i can honestly say it's not my raw ability vs a lack of understanding of how to drive a real race car on a track that caused the incident. i hope someone out there appreciates an honest story!
if u really drive 90% on the track with the car then consider a real race car and learn how to drive properly. even if u split time 50/50 on street vs track, i'd still consider another car. but if you are the guy who doesn't really care and doesn't mind being the guy the crusty 944 de/clubracers ***** about cause you're slow in the corners but don't give point bys... then maybe stick with the tt. (i'm exaggerating, but there are guys who are nodding as they read this).
if u really drive 90% on the track with the car then consider a real race car and learn how to drive properly. even if u split time 50/50 on street vs track, i'd still consider another car. but if you are the guy who doesn't really care and doesn't mind being the guy the crusty 944 de/clubracers ***** about cause you're slow in the corners but don't give point bys... then maybe stick with the tt. (i'm exaggerating, but there are guys who are nodding as they read this).
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,028
From: Houston
Rep Power: 201
^^ this is exactly why I stopped tracking the tt - I wasn't improving as a driver and if anything getting more lazy. My 944 turbo by comparo has no ABS, no power steering, no traction control, etc. If I make a mistake there is no E-savior, but also a big mistake is no worry since the car is almost disposable
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,181
From: FL West Coast
Rep Power: 117
jamuz:
A key point you make, referring to tracking your TT is "...it's pretty fun..." even at 8/10's.
I now am too old to consider real competitive racing again, so running at 8/10's, keeping it under control AND still having fun is all I am seeking.
I have driven a few Porsche's since 1967 and always eventually found myself swapping ends. That's the reason I stayed away from owning a Porsche until just recently and that decision was made mostly because of awd which I figured would help mitigate the end swapping.
If I ever got serious about racing again (very unlikely) I would probably do it with some other marque anyway.
A key point you make, referring to tracking your TT is "...it's pretty fun..." even at 8/10's.
I now am too old to consider real competitive racing again, so running at 8/10's, keeping it under control AND still having fun is all I am seeking.
I have driven a few Porsche's since 1967 and always eventually found myself swapping ends. That's the reason I stayed away from owning a Porsche until just recently and that decision was made mostly because of awd which I figured would help mitigate the end swapping.
If I ever got serious about racing again (very unlikely) I would probably do it with some other marque anyway.
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,116
From: Palos Verdes
Rep Power: 256
I already have. Some very nice comments from a professional shop in this thread!
The suspension work done by TPC is by far the most extensive I've seen for our 997 Turbo. This is the only vendor I know that has bought a Turbo, kept it, tuned it with special components fabricated for it (sway bar, re-valved and re-springed Bilstein, re-programmed PASM -- first I've ever heard of, etc.).
(Another vendor did somethig similar but unfortunately used lowering spring, not Moton, and not tuned Bilstein.)
There is no question that if I am in the area and especially if I track my car, TPC Turbo is the first car I would test drive and very likely the vendor I would pick to tune my car.
The suspension work done by TPC is by far the most extensive I've seen for our 997 Turbo. This is the only vendor I know that has bought a Turbo, kept it, tuned it with special components fabricated for it (sway bar, re-valved and re-springed Bilstein, re-programmed PASM -- first I've ever heard of, etc.).
(Another vendor did somethig similar but unfortunately used lowering spring, not Moton, and not tuned Bilstein.)
There is no question that if I am in the area and especially if I track my car, TPC Turbo is the first car I would test drive and very likely the vendor I would pick to tune my car.
Last edited by cannga; Dec 10, 2009 at 03:39 PM.