HELP with Bilsteins!!!
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 9,108
From: South Florida
Rep Power: 529
Larry, I tell ya, I actually wouldn't feel bad if I had one of those AWE 750 packages on my car, upgraded droplinks, dog bones, etc. as well as the Bilsteins, was tracking my car big time every weekend, and had 10,000 hardcore track miles on the car, and THEN hit a bump or something and heard the "snap." I would at least have said to myself, "Well, I've modded the crap out of the car and had some great track fun, and it's ok that the shock broke." But these have been on my car hardly ANY time at all (I doubt 100 miles) and the driving has been "weekend to dinner" type stuff. I backed out of my garage (turning the steering wheel to the left) and "pop!" The whole thing is just so absurd! I am VERY tempted to go buy a stock shock and take it to my buddies machine shop where we can examine the two, cut the stock one and examine the inside steel, and post the results here! I have basically decided, after this, that I am not modding the car anymore whatsoever until my warranty period is over. I'm going to take the replacement shock (assuming Bilstein will step up to the plate...which I believe they will) and just enjoy the car for the next few years. God forbid if something else goes wrong with the shocks, I'll trash them, go back to stock, and never look back!
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,321
From: Fastlane USA
Rep Power: 246
What I meant by passing spec is having them tested on a shock dyno.
Thread Starter
|
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 177
From: Baton Rouge
Rep Power: 27
First, let me say that you've started an excellent thread and I've really enjoyed participating in the discussion. It is a very good reminder for all of us, me included, that ALL mods in our cars are to be taken seriously, and that mods could go wrong.
Now that we have discussed what could have gone wrong with Bilstein (faulty material, poor instruction manual, non idiot-proof installation), let's talk, I mean speculate
about the tech. If I were an expert witness for Bilstein, I would concentrate on what you wrote in your very first post of this thread: "They have ***always*** had a little popping noise coming from the front (especially the one that is now screwed) but I just figured they were getting "broken in.""
So whatever the problem was, it probably started very early, and we cannot rule out that it might have started the moment your car left the shop. If (and only if) this is true, it would bring up my first problem with this installation:
1. If indeed the noise started that early, than it is possible the tech had not test driven the car adequately. I would think this is very much his responsibility.
If he didn't hear the noise, yet you heard "always," then perhaps he didn't test adequately. If you heard the noise and told him, and he said this was normal, that's even a BIGGER problem, for him. Did you ever ask him about this noise?
The noise also allows me to speculate LOL further about what could have gone wrong:
2. Inadequate tightening that was tight enough at first for alignment but worked itself loose over time? The popping noise is the top of the shaft moving around from the looseness?
3. Over tightening causing the top of the shaft to shear off partially? The popping nose is the shearing worsening over time?
Please take everything with a table size grain of salt; I am merely an amateur playing the speculating game.
The more I look at your pictures, the more frightening they look!
Now that we have discussed what could have gone wrong with Bilstein (faulty material, poor instruction manual, non idiot-proof installation), let's talk, I mean speculate
about the tech. If I were an expert witness for Bilstein, I would concentrate on what you wrote in your very first post of this thread: "They have ***always*** had a little popping noise coming from the front (especially the one that is now screwed) but I just figured they were getting "broken in.""So whatever the problem was, it probably started very early, and we cannot rule out that it might have started the moment your car left the shop. If (and only if) this is true, it would bring up my first problem with this installation:
1. If indeed the noise started that early, than it is possible the tech had not test driven the car adequately. I would think this is very much his responsibility.
If he didn't hear the noise, yet you heard "always," then perhaps he didn't test adequately. If you heard the noise and told him, and he said this was normal, that's even a BIGGER problem, for him. Did you ever ask him about this noise?
The noise also allows me to speculate LOL further about what could have gone wrong:
2. Inadequate tightening that was tight enough at first for alignment but worked itself loose over time? The popping noise is the top of the shaft moving around from the looseness?
3. Over tightening causing the top of the shaft to shear off partially? The popping nose is the shearing worsening over time?
Please take everything with a table size grain of salt; I am merely an amateur playing the speculating game.
The more I look at your pictures, the more frightening they look!
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,321
From: Fastlane USA
Rep Power: 246
Larry, I tell ya, I actually wouldn't feel bad if I had one of those AWE 750 packages on my car, upgraded droplinks, dog bones, etc. as well as the Bilsteins, was tracking my car big time every weekend, and had 10,000 hardcore track miles on the car, and THEN hit a bump or something and heard the "snap." I would at least have said to myself, "Well, I've modded the crap out of the car and had some great track fun, and it's ok that the shock broke." But these have been on my car hardly ANY time at all (I doubt 100 miles) and the driving has been "weekend to dinner" type stuff. I backed out of my garage (turning the steering wheel to the left) and "pop!" The whole thing is just so absurd! I am VERY tempted to go buy a stock shock and take it to my buddies machine shop where we can examine the two, cut the stock one and examine the inside steel, and post the results here! I have basically decided, after this, that I am not modding the car anymore whatsoever until my warranty period is over. I'm going to take the replacement shock (assuming Bilstein will step up to the plate...which I believe they will) and just enjoy the car for the next few years. God forbid if something else goes wrong with the shocks, I'll trash them, go back to stock, and never look back!
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,518
From: Corpus Christi, Texas
Rep Power: 351
What could go wrong with the install, a few things.
I've seen a guy installing camber plates in a new gt3 at the track, only to overtighten it just enough to snap off the top of the oem strut, I've heard of right and left shocks being mixed up on 996 installations, I think overly slammed cars also have f'd up geometry no matter the suspension components, etc, crap happens sometimes.
The popping noise at initial install was probably the sentinal event, totally not normal. When the guys at F-L installed mine, they took their time, did an extensive test drive (pvt track in back), when they said it was good to go, it was, it didn't make a peep.
Just because the tech works at a dealer doesn't presume he's an expert at 997tt suspension setups, in fact most don't know anything about track suspension setups I've found. A dealer tech once spent an afternoon trying to align my lowered car to stock specs without me even asking!
I would also ask the tech pointed questions about his real experience. I'll bet he hasn't installed nearly as many bilstein coilovers on 997tts as he hinted. jmo I could be way off base, just being devil's advocate.
I also got mine from AWE, in a crappy looking box, but I really don't think it's a vendor issue at all. But I will admit, your post has me second guessing removing my gmg springs/stock struts, which were flawless. Like I said, one slight issue and the b16s are in the junk pile.
GL and I commend you for being up front and putting this story out for others to hede.
I've seen a guy installing camber plates in a new gt3 at the track, only to overtighten it just enough to snap off the top of the oem strut, I've heard of right and left shocks being mixed up on 996 installations, I think overly slammed cars also have f'd up geometry no matter the suspension components, etc, crap happens sometimes.
The popping noise at initial install was probably the sentinal event, totally not normal. When the guys at F-L installed mine, they took their time, did an extensive test drive (pvt track in back), when they said it was good to go, it was, it didn't make a peep.
Just because the tech works at a dealer doesn't presume he's an expert at 997tt suspension setups, in fact most don't know anything about track suspension setups I've found. A dealer tech once spent an afternoon trying to align my lowered car to stock specs without me even asking!
I would also ask the tech pointed questions about his real experience. I'll bet he hasn't installed nearly as many bilstein coilovers on 997tts as he hinted. jmo I could be way off base, just being devil's advocate.
I also got mine from AWE, in a crappy looking box, but I really don't think it's a vendor issue at all. But I will admit, your post has me second guessing removing my gmg springs/stock struts, which were flawless. Like I said, one slight issue and the b16s are in the junk pile.
GL and I commend you for being up front and putting this story out for others to hede.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 174
From: Toronto
Rep Power: 25
Cannga
I work with materials like this and I have a little knowledge (which is dangerous) but really I'm just guessing the likely. I'm thinking it'd be pretty hard to break that rod in any way unless its soft or out of spec.
BUT! having said all that & in the light of the risk I am now going to Pfaff Tuning for install to:
A- get an expert installation & alignment.
B- have an expert witness and credible defence against 'installation fault'
Pfaff set cars up for track use and know their stuff, I am asking for a street setting & alignment.
I would have loved to make this a DIY project but the specter of that broken rod at speed has me spooked.
Bob
I work with materials like this and I have a little knowledge (which is dangerous) but really I'm just guessing the likely. I'm thinking it'd be pretty hard to break that rod in any way unless its soft or out of spec.
BUT! having said all that & in the light of the risk I am now going to Pfaff Tuning for install to:
A- get an expert installation & alignment.
B- have an expert witness and credible defence against 'installation fault'
Pfaff set cars up for track use and know their stuff, I am asking for a street setting & alignment.
I would have loved to make this a DIY project but the specter of that broken rod at speed has me spooked.
Bob
Something tells me you do this for a living?
You are discussing faulty material in a PROPERLY installed coilover -- which very well might be the case, but it might not.
Let me just play devil's advocate here for the sake & fun of discussion: What if the force was applied on the rod the way that it was not intended to be? Sideways instead of up and down the shaft, such as when something was loose and now the weight of the car falls on the shaft at an angle?
The closest example I could think of, since I am looking at one, is a chopstick. If you apply force ALONG the shaft, you could never break it. But turn the stick sideways and now bend it --> broken instantly with very little force.
I now am quite interested in what Bilstein has to say. For one, even assuming it is NOT a metal fatigue, I think this points out at least one or two faults on Bilstein part: vague installation manual that's only in German (?), and an installation procedure that is not idiot proof.
You are discussing faulty material in a PROPERLY installed coilover -- which very well might be the case, but it might not.
Let me just play devil's advocate here for the sake & fun of discussion: What if the force was applied on the rod the way that it was not intended to be? Sideways instead of up and down the shaft, such as when something was loose and now the weight of the car falls on the shaft at an angle?
The closest example I could think of, since I am looking at one
, is a chopstick. If you apply force ALONG the shaft, you could never break it. But turn the stick sideways and now bend it --> broken instantly with very little force.I now am quite interested in what Bilstein has to say. For one, even assuming it is NOT a metal fatigue, I think this points out at least one or two faults on Bilstein part: vague installation manual that's only in German (?), and an installation procedure that is not idiot proof.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,989
From: Texas
Rep Power: 117
Even if this turns out to be an install error, the pics are very disturbing to say the least. The shafts look like cast steel, I can't believe the oem is anything but forged. If this is indeed the case I will have not have a problem going back to stock.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 174
From: Toronto
Rep Power: 25
Not sure that is cast. Its the way it breaks that gives it that crystalline fracture look. Cast would be unbelievable, sintered perhaps.
Bilstein is the oem supplier, but the Porsche specifications are different than the OTC aftermarket. The puzzling thing to me is the Damptronics are supposed to come with a TUV certificate, hard to believe something like that would pass?? I did a quick google on coilover failures and there are lots of reports of failures . This really makes one question aftermarket "upgrades".
Even if this turns out to be an install error, the pics are very disturbing to say the least. The shafts look like cast steel, I can't believe the oem is anything but forged. If this is indeed the case I will have not have a problem going back to stock.
Even if this turns out to be an install error, the pics are very disturbing to say the least. The shafts look like cast steel, I can't believe the oem is anything but forged. If this is indeed the case I will have not have a problem going back to stock.
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,989
From: Texas
Rep Power: 117
I hope you're right, I can't believe people like Ruf, CG and Walter himself would sign off on it. Someone from Bilstein needs to speak up here.
Thread Starter
|
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 177
From: Baton Rouge
Rep Power: 27
Photos - Stock vs. Aftermarket
OK, there is now no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the steel used in the manufacture of the stock shocks is of higher quality than the steel used in the aftermarket PSS10 Damptronics! It is as plain as day! The shock on the left is stock, right is aftermarket (both manufactured by Bilstein FYI). Notice the bright, shiny surface of the stock shaft vs. the duller, grayer surface of the aftermarket shaft. I don't know what this means strength wise (maybe forged vs. cast??)...but my gut tells me stock is stronger! I simply know that it is different material. I'd LOVE for a Bilstein rep to chime in here and tell me otherwise! No reasonable person can tell me this is exactly the same steel! I am SO tempted to buy another PSS10 myself, take it and my stock shock to my buddies machine shop, and run various stress and strength tests to the steel shafts!!! How many of you guys would find that interesting? Seriously, respond to this post if that would be of interest to you. For the first time, I'm actually starting to get pissed! Also, I have posted pictures of the box the PSS10's came in...pretty rough! Please note the box doesn't particularly bother me, it's what's IN the box that is important to me (some of you simply posted questions about the shape of the box, so I wanted to show you). Also note that AWE (my vendor) has been nothing but professional in this matter (they didn't manufacture the product, Bilstein did). I will be shipping the bum shock to them tomorrow.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,774
From: OR Room 5
Rep Power: 1007
OK, there is now no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the steel used in the manufacture of the stock shocks is of higher quality than the steel used in the aftermarket PSS10 Damptronics! It is as plain as day! The shock on the left is stock, right is aftermarket (both manufactured by Bilstein FYI). Notice the bright, shiny surface of the stock shaft vs. the duller, grayer surface of the aftermarket shaft. I don't know what this means strength wise (maybe forged vs. cast??)...but my gut tells me stock is stronger!
It's an area that get's beat up and exposed...even after light use, it's going look beaten.
Thread Starter
|
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 177
From: Baton Rouge
Rep Power: 27
While I'm sympathetic to your situation, I'm not sure that the wear and tear on the outside of the steel shaft is a good indicator of strength. Here's my stock damper after swapping to Damptronics.
It's an area that get's beat up and exposed...even after light use, it's going look beaten.
It's an area that get's beat up and exposed...even after light use, it's going look beaten.