HELP with Bilsteins!!!
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From: Baton Rouge
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Have you ever made a mistake? (Not being sarcastic at all.)
And it is just a vote -- I could be wrong and don't mean to make light of this situation at all. OTOH, one has to take into consideration the unusual, and identical, circumstances that have not been emphasized: backing up, low speed, soon after installation. There was hardly any powerful high speed force on the shaft when it broke. I could think something was loose, or a screw broken, and causes the whole weight of the car to be applied at an odd angle. If the breakage occurs on straight line at high speed, then I would have more reasons to think the shaft is defective.
I don't necessarily let Bilstein go free in this case either: Assuming it is installer's error, a perfect system would not allow said installer to make such error.
If Bilstein says it's their error, you won't ever use it. If Bilstein says it's installer's error, you, AND I, would still be suspicious. So like I said, answer will never be known and if you are concerned, there ARE alternatives. Stock Turbo is a very very soft car and anything that stiffens suspension is a step in the right direction.
BTW, probably a good idea to have the tech check on the rest of the suspension to make sure no arm was bent when the car collapsed, have you looked?
And it is just a vote -- I could be wrong and don't mean to make light of this situation at all. OTOH, one has to take into consideration the unusual, and identical, circumstances that have not been emphasized: backing up, low speed, soon after installation. There was hardly any powerful high speed force on the shaft when it broke. I could think something was loose, or a screw broken, and causes the whole weight of the car to be applied at an odd angle. If the breakage occurs on straight line at high speed, then I would have more reasons to think the shaft is defective.
I don't necessarily let Bilstein go free in this case either: Assuming it is installer's error, a perfect system would not allow said installer to make such error.
If Bilstein says it's their error, you won't ever use it. If Bilstein says it's installer's error, you, AND I, would still be suspicious. So like I said, answer will never be known and if you are concerned, there ARE alternatives. Stock Turbo is a very very soft car and anything that stiffens suspension is a step in the right direction.
BTW, probably a good idea to have the tech check on the rest of the suspension to make sure no arm was bent when the car collapsed, have you looked?
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From: Baton Rouge
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Have you ever made a mistake? (Not being sarcastic at all.)
I agree with "wait and see"! And it is just a vote -- I could be wrong and don't mean to make light of this situation at all. OTOH, one has to take into consideration the unusual, and identical, circumstances that have not been emphasized: backing up, low speed, soon after installation. There was hardly any powerful high speed force on the shaft when it broke. I could think something was loose, or a screw broken, and causes the whole weight of the car to be applied at an odd angle. If the breakage occurs on straight line at high speed, then I would have more reasons to think the shaft is defective.
I don't necessarily let Bilstein go free in this case either: Assuming it is installer's error, a perfect system would not allow said installer to make such error.
If Bilstein says it's their error, you won't ever use it. If Bilstein says it's installer's error, you, AND I, would still be suspicious. So like I said, answer will never be known and bottom line is thankfully you are safe, and if you are concerned, there ARE alternatives. Stock Turbo is a very very soft car and anything that stiffens suspension is a step in the right direction.
BTW, probably a good idea to have the tech check on the rest of the suspension to make sure no arm was bent when the car collapsed, have you looked?
I agree with "wait and see"! And it is just a vote -- I could be wrong and don't mean to make light of this situation at all. OTOH, one has to take into consideration the unusual, and identical, circumstances that have not been emphasized: backing up, low speed, soon after installation. There was hardly any powerful high speed force on the shaft when it broke. I could think something was loose, or a screw broken, and causes the whole weight of the car to be applied at an odd angle. If the breakage occurs on straight line at high speed, then I would have more reasons to think the shaft is defective.
I don't necessarily let Bilstein go free in this case either: Assuming it is installer's error, a perfect system would not allow said installer to make such error.
If Bilstein says it's their error, you won't ever use it. If Bilstein says it's installer's error, you, AND I, would still be suspicious. So like I said, answer will never be known and bottom line is thankfully you are safe, and if you are concerned, there ARE alternatives. Stock Turbo is a very very soft car and anything that stiffens suspension is a step in the right direction.
BTW, probably a good idea to have the tech check on the rest of the suspension to make sure no arm was bent when the car collapsed, have you looked?
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Ok sorry it didn't work out! 
And REALLY thankfully not a high speed event!
As for what could have gone wrong with installation: Totally out of my field of expertise -- believe it or not my work has nothing to do with cars. The pro's on this forum would have some idea but I think they are not going to say anything for fear of getting their name involved in a bad situation. If you really want to know -- use PM and also check out rockamoto's post above on what people have to say.
I really only jumped into the discussion to point out the few things that no one has mentioned, how both incidents occurred at low speed during backing up, to me pointing to something wrong with the orientation and or tightness/looseness of the coilover.
BTW, every time I changed some suspension component in my car, I asked the installer to "really" test drive it for me. And the way my installer test drives it (I dare not ask about these sessions for fear of not loving my baby Turbo as much anymore
; I think he mentioned something about some "power slide" once. ), I know *HE* would be the one experiencing any installation problem!
And REALLY thankfully not a high speed event!As for what could have gone wrong with installation: Totally out of my field of expertise -- believe it or not my work has nothing to do with cars. The pro's on this forum would have some idea but I think they are not going to say anything for fear of getting their name involved in a bad situation. If you really want to know -- use PM and also check out rockamoto's post above on what people have to say.
I really only jumped into the discussion to point out the few things that no one has mentioned, how both incidents occurred at low speed during backing up, to me pointing to something wrong with the orientation and or tightness/looseness of the coilover.
BTW, every time I changed some suspension component in my car, I asked the installer to "really" test drive it for me. And the way my installer test drives it (I dare not ask about these sessions for fear of not loving my baby Turbo as much anymore
; I think he mentioned something about some "power slide" once. ), I know *HE* would be the one experiencing any installation problem!
Last edited by cannga; Jan 9, 2010 at 04:58 PM.
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Larry, yes I'm anxious to see the exact cause of the problem. I have to think it is simply the quality of the steel that Bilstein used? The Porsche tech is coming to the house tomorrow afternoon to pull the shock so I can ship back to AWE. I'll be taking several pictures and posting them. I'm pretty sure the steel just snapped at the very top...simply amazing to me that this happened as I was backing out of my driveway!
Had it been the steel then two parties (supplier and installer) may have noticed it . The only part of the process that has one party is the install .
But then the post by Rockamoto threw off my guess . Now there's two different suppliers and installers and the only thing in common is Bistein.
The only real way to know is to have BOTH his and your broken parts evaluated by the same non involved party . Attorneys are usually great at finding an expert witness to investigate the exact cause and had you been in an accident with injury that's the route it may have gone --they may have even shared accountability. Rockamoto did not specify whether Bilstein replaced his part the second time when it broke --only that the installer and Bilstein worked together to resolve it.
So I guess --we'll never know .
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I'd quickly put a file to the rod and see how hard it is then get it checked on a diamond stylus for hardness against spec. I'm guessing material defect, it happens.
Its happened to me, a supplier messes up material incoming inspection misses it.
Its happened to me, a supplier messes up material incoming inspection misses it.
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Update
OK, the Porsche tech came over this afternoon and removed the shock. Pics are attached. There is now, absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever, that this is faulty material. There is no twisting, or any indication of installation error in my opinion. I am not a metallurgist, but this looks to be the absolute cheapest steel I have ever seen! It looks like pumice on the inside! It simply snapped into two! It is definitely cast, and looks unbelievably brittle. A client of mine, who has a machine shop, says there's no doubt it's faulty material in his mind as well. Granted, he's not a metallurgist either, but works with steel, aluminum, etc. on a daily basis. After I receive my new shock, I'm going to put them back on and if there's a LICK of trouble will go back to stock and just live with the "hoppy" *** the car has in stock form. Anyone please feel free to chime in on your opinion of the pics.
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the metal failed at the corner of the step up on the shaft. There should be a generous radius there machined into the material to minimize a stress riser. The metal at the failure point doesn't look any different than regular steel
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I would not be surprised at all if these were knock-offs, I would get the mfg involved and see if they are legit. There are a ton of knock-offs out there that are very hard to tell from the original these days (packaging as well) including Bosch fuel pumps.
Not to say your vendor would intentionally do this, however they do get into the supply chain.
Mike
Not to say your vendor would intentionally do this, however they do get into the supply chain.
Mike
OK, the Porsche tech came over this afternoon and removed the shock. Pics are attached. There is now, absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever, that this is faulty material. There is no twisting, or any indication of installation error in my opinion. I am not a metallurgist, but this looks to be the absolute cheapest steel I have ever seen! It looks like pumice on the inside! It simply snapped into two! It is definitely cast, and looks unbelievably brittle. A client of mine, who has a machine shop, says there's no doubt it's faulty material in his mind as well. Granted, he's not a metallurgist either, but works with steel, aluminum, etc. on a daily basis. After I receive my new shock, I'm going to put them back on and if there's a LICK of trouble will go back to stock and just live with the "hoppy" *** the car has in stock form. Anyone please feel free to chime in on your opinion of the pics.
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I would contact Bilstein directly . You spoke with the installer and vendor but this needs to be addressed with the manufacturer .
I wish there was a photo of how your setup looked completed . I have pictures of mine . I also have photo of the Bilstein sitting next to the Techart spring --which by the way is very nice spring .
I am not a technician or expert in any of this but as a novice it does not look as easy to install as one may imagine . That does not mean there is any excuse for yours breaking though.
I wish there was a photo of how your setup looked completed . I have pictures of mine . I also have photo of the Bilstein sitting next to the Techart spring --which by the way is very nice spring .
I am not a technician or expert in any of this but as a novice it does not look as easy to install as one may imagine . That does not mean there is any excuse for yours breaking though.
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Larry, very good and "professional" analysis. I too had "expert witnesses" in mind. If a case like this go to court, it would come down to a war between the expert witnesses, wouldn't it?
So interesting to see what someone "in the profession" thinks.
I
So interesting to see what someone "in the profession" thinks.
I
It's got to be one of the three things . At first I tended to speculate it's the install . It does take several hours and its not as simple as one may imagine.
Had it been the steel then two parties (supplier and installer) may have noticed it . The only part of the process that has one party is the install .
But then the post by Rockamoto threw off my guess . Now there's two different suppliers and installers and the only thing in common is Bistein.
The only real way to know is to have BOTH his and your broken parts evaluated by the same non involved party . Attorneys are usually great at finding an expert witness to investigate the exact cause and had you been in an accident with injury that's the route it may have gone --they may have even shared accountability. Rockamoto did not specify whether Bilstein replaced his part the second time when it broke --only that the installer and Bilstein worked together to resolve it.
So I guess --we'll never know .
Had it been the steel then two parties (supplier and installer) may have noticed it . The only part of the process that has one party is the install .
But then the post by Rockamoto threw off my guess . Now there's two different suppliers and installers and the only thing in common is Bistein.
The only real way to know is to have BOTH his and your broken parts evaluated by the same non involved party . Attorneys are usually great at finding an expert witness to investigate the exact cause and had you been in an accident with injury that's the route it may have gone --they may have even shared accountability. Rockamoto did not specify whether Bilstein replaced his part the second time when it broke --only that the installer and Bilstein worked together to resolve it.
So I guess --we'll never know .