Bilstein Alternatives?
#33
01-03-2010, 08:06 PM
My RSS front drop links bent after about 400 miles. Initially, I received the incorrect 996TT version which are much beefier than the 997TT version. RSS customer service was top-notch. RSS sent the 997TT version and even paid for the re-install labor. The 997TT version were installed without thread-lock and loosened twice.
So after my third trip for drop link service I decided I wanted something that did not have to worry about and ended up with the modified SharkLinks (stock drop links shortened and re-welded in the proper orientation). I did not even contact RSS about the bent drop links, but I am sure they would have made every effort to take corrective action. I do not know if the drop links bent because they are less sturdy than the 996TT versions, because they loosened, because they were and early production version, or some other combination of factors. Again, I am not bashing RSS - they have great products and service. I am just further explaining the reason I went in a different direction.
So after my third trip for drop link service I decided I wanted something that did not have to worry about and ended up with the modified SharkLinks (stock drop links shortened and re-welded in the proper orientation). I did not even contact RSS about the bent drop links, but I am sure they would have made every effort to take corrective action. I do not know if the drop links bent because they are less sturdy than the 996TT versions, because they loosened, because they were and early production version, or some other combination of factors. Again, I am not bashing RSS - they have great products and service. I am just further explaining the reason I went in a different direction.
#34
01-03-2010, 09:03 PM
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Fastlane USA
Posts: 2,319
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Dave,
All excellent info posted here, and I agree with bbywu (yes he's a wealth of info), *if* you want something different from Bilstein, the choices narrow down to three: KW V3, JRZ, and Moton.
But... one thing I would like to add is that the key to concentrate on is not that those 3 alternatives are "better," which they are, but that they are DIFFERENT. They are stiffer and designed for a different purpose: more aggressive and track oriented, less "daily drive." I am 100% certain this is the case for JRZ and Moton, and not sure but think it applies to KW as well. The shock absorbers in these coilovers are designed for much stiffer spring rates, so it is NOT a simple matter of switching out the springs either (again, less sure about KW).
(Larry, same thing about the Techarts, "different," not necessarily better. The Techart to my best knowledge is Bilstein Damptronic with possible different spring and dampening rates. Most likely stiffer but since they are so strict about releasing data, no one knows.)
The 2 people with KW on this forum are my forum friend cayenne_ksa and my mod advisor
Gotboost?. You might want to email them for opinions. I suspect that it is a more aggressive setup than Bilstein, but other than a high spring rate in the rear of around 950 (?), versus Bilstein 570, this setup is a complete unknown to me and has very few users' reports/reviews on these Porsche forums.
As for quality? Bilstein makes the OEM shock; the ones in your car now IS made by Bilstein. They also use Porsche's chief test driver, Walter Rohrl, as their consultant, etc., so the link is deep and that's why I frequently said it is like getting a factory Sport upgrade -- a safest and most no-brainer of all mods.
Not to say that it is the case, but I agree with TT Surgeon in the sense that I would not rule out installer's error in that other particular case either. I am curious myself.
The popping drop link? My installer did say something similar to TT Surgeon's post: if you catch/slam the suspension at a correct "perfect storm" angle, the link will pop. But I think sparkhill's ones just popped, do agree that it should be better made, and did get extra ones similar to sparkhill's just in case mines do :-). Do keep in mind the vast majority of links have not popped.
(cayenne_ksa, I believe you were asking about Bilstein warranty? Lifetime. And they are KNOWN for incredible and generous service. They will give you a lifetime supply of drop links
; it's just a mild pain in the derriere to change.)
In the end, my opinion is the key to remember is that the alternative coilovers are different, not just better or worse. For track or more aggressive setup, yes consider KW, JRZ, and Moton; or change the Bilstein valving and spring rates as in the excellent works by TPC/Techarts/etc. Bilstein itself makes more aggressive shock than the Damptronic.
But... if you drive the cars frequently on bad roads, and if you daily drive the car, or if you are a more "gentle" type of driver, then stay with the safe choice.
All excellent info posted here, and I agree with bbywu (yes he's a wealth of info), *if* you want something different from Bilstein, the choices narrow down to three: KW V3, JRZ, and Moton.
But... one thing I would like to add is that the key to concentrate on is not that those 3 alternatives are "better," which they are, but that they are DIFFERENT. They are stiffer and designed for a different purpose: more aggressive and track oriented, less "daily drive." I am 100% certain this is the case for JRZ and Moton, and not sure but think it applies to KW as well. The shock absorbers in these coilovers are designed for much stiffer spring rates, so it is NOT a simple matter of switching out the springs either (again, less sure about KW).
(Larry, same thing about the Techarts, "different," not necessarily better. The Techart to my best knowledge is Bilstein Damptronic with possible different spring and dampening rates. Most likely stiffer but since they are so strict about releasing data, no one knows.)
The 2 people with KW on this forum are my forum friend cayenne_ksa and my mod advisor
Gotboost?. You might want to email them for opinions. I suspect that it is a more aggressive setup than Bilstein, but other than a high spring rate in the rear of around 950 (?), versus Bilstein 570, this setup is a complete unknown to me and has very few users' reports/reviews on these Porsche forums.As for quality? Bilstein makes the OEM shock; the ones in your car now IS made by Bilstein. They also use Porsche's chief test driver, Walter Rohrl, as their consultant, etc., so the link is deep and that's why I frequently said it is like getting a factory Sport upgrade -- a safest and most no-brainer of all mods.
Not to say that it is the case, but I agree with TT Surgeon in the sense that I would not rule out installer's error in that other particular case either. I am curious myself.
The popping drop link? My installer did say something similar to TT Surgeon's post: if you catch/slam the suspension at a correct "perfect storm" angle, the link will pop. But I think sparkhill's ones just popped, do agree that it should be better made, and did get extra ones similar to sparkhill's just in case mines do :-). Do keep in mind the vast majority of links have not popped.
(cayenne_ksa, I believe you were asking about Bilstein warranty? Lifetime. And they are KNOWN for incredible and generous service. They will give you a lifetime supply of drop links
; it's just a mild pain in the derriere to change.)In the end, my opinion is the key to remember is that the alternative coilovers are different, not just better or worse. For track or more aggressive setup, yes consider KW, JRZ, and Moton; or change the Bilstein valving and spring rates as in the excellent works by TPC/Techarts/etc. Bilstein itself makes more aggressive shock than the Damptronic.
But... if you drive the cars frequently on bad roads, and if you daily drive the car, or if you are a more "gentle" type of driver, then stay with the safe choice.
#35
01-03-2010, 10:19 PM
I replaced only the front drop links although I will probably do the rear toes at some point. I have the RSS sway bars (medium-medium) and Bilstein B16's and ran the Bilstein drop links until they broke. Many owners are using the stock Bilstein front drop links have had no issues, so it may be reasonable to start there. If I was not using the SharkLinks, I think I might go with the Tarett drop links and toe links but there are a number of good options.
Last edited by sparkhill; 01-03-2010 at 10:43 PM.
#36
01-03-2010, 10:19 PM
RSS 997TT links look so fragile. The neck & shaft look so much smaller than 996 links and the Tarett links I was using. RSS is a quality shop and I am sure, or hope, they will take corrective action.
Good question about using GT2/GT3 links. I don't believe they fit because Alex/Sharkwerks wouldn't go through the trouble fabricating the Sharklinks for his customers if the GT2/GT3 links fit? This is the kind of question that bbywu usually has an answer for.
Maybe someone could measure or look up the length; I am sure Alex/Sharkwerks would know too.
Good question about using GT2/GT3 links. I don't believe they fit because Alex/Sharkwerks wouldn't go through the trouble fabricating the Sharklinks for his customers if the GT2/GT3 links fit? This is the kind of question that bbywu usually has an answer for.
Maybe someone could measure or look up the length; I am sure Alex/Sharkwerks would know too.
Last edited by cannga; 01-03-2010 at 10:24 PM.
#37
01-03-2010, 10:29 PM
Good question about using GT2/GT3 links. I don't believe they fit because Alex/Sharkwerks wouldn't go through the trouble fabricating the Sharklinks for his customers if the GT2/GT3 links fit? This is the kind of question that bbywu usually has an answer for.
Maybe someone could measure or look up the length; I am sure Alex/Sharkwerks would know too.
Maybe someone could measure or look up the length; I am sure Alex/Sharkwerks would know too.
...not to mention, I'm pretty much a geek.I'm going to defer to Alex or any other tuner. However, when I had my friend's GT3 on my ramps, I'm 99% sure the mounting points on the dampers are different in location compared to the Damptronics mounting point. You could probably pull the sway bar upward, but I'm not sure a shortened drop link would reach and still maintain proper clearance during turning. The Tarret components, like most other aftermarket links, are adjustable in length, preventing this problem up front. It's just a guess form looking at the drops on the GT3...but I'd need the pro's to confirm it.
- bob
Last edited by bbywu; 01-03-2010 at 10:36 PM.
#38
01-03-2010, 10:38 PM
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Fastlane USA
Posts: 2,319
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For my edification, regarding stock set-up, stock drop links work just fine; however if you upgrade to Damptronics, then the stock front drop links have a greater tendency to fail and a Sharklink should be used? What about the rear?
#39
01-03-2010, 10:41 PM
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Those RSS links are very disheartening, no thanks. If/when my bilstein links fail I would go with TRGs or even Sharky's links. GT2 link info would be helpful. I still hold that the various bilstein drop link fails could be installer error, just my own take, I hope I'm wrong.
c
c
Last edited by TT Surgeon; 01-03-2010 at 10:52 PM.
#40
01-04-2010, 03:02 AM
I would personally stay away from ADJUSTABLE drop-links for road use. They work themselves loose with bumpy roads and then start to rattle. If you need slightly different length drop-links then I believe Porsche have a catalogue of different ones for the GT3 and their race cars. I would go with these myself if I ever decided to replace the Bilstein/stock (F/R) setup I have now.
Last edited by Alex_997TT; 01-04-2010 at 03:04 AM.
#41
01-04-2010, 12:12 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Orange County Socal
Posts: 1,621
Rep Power: 157 Those RSS links are very disheartening, no thanks. If/when my bilstein links fail I would go with TRGs or even Sharky's links. GT2 link info would be helpful. I still hold that the various bilstein drop link fails could be installer error, just my own take, I hope I'm wrong.
c
c
#42
01-04-2010, 12:22 PM
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Orange County Socal
Posts: 1,621
Rep Power: 157 Dave,
All excellent info posted here, and I agree with bbywu (yes he's a wealth of info), *if* you want something different from Bilstein, the choices narrow down to three: KW V3, JRZ, and Moton.
But... one thing I would like to add is that the key to concentrate on is not that those 3 alternatives are "better," which they are, but that they are DIFFERENT. They are stiffer and designed for a different purpose: more aggressive and track oriented, less "daily drive." I am 100% certain this is the case for JRZ and Moton, and not sure but think it applies to KW as well. The shock absorbers in these coilovers are designed for much stiffer spring rates, so it is NOT a simple matter of switching out the springs either (again, less sure about KW).
(Larry, same thing about the Techarts, "different," not necessarily better. The Techart to my best knowledge is Bilstein Damptronic with possible different spring and dampening rates. Most likely stiffer but since they are so strict about releasing data, no one knows.)
The 2 people with KW on this forum are my forum friend cayenne_ksa and my mod advisor Gotboost?. You might want to email them for opinions. I suspect that it is a more aggressive setup than Bilstein, but other than a high spring rate in the rear of around 950 (?), versus Bilstein 570, this setup is a complete unknown to me and has very few users' reports/reviews on these Porsche forums.
As for quality? Bilstein makes the OEM shock; the ones in your car now IS made by Bilstein. They also use Porsche's chief test driver, Walter Rohrl, as their consultant, etc., so the link is deep and that's why I frequently said it is like getting a factory Sport upgrade -- a safest and most no-brainer of all mods.
Not to say that it is the case, but I agree with TT Surgeon in the sense that I would not rule out installer's error in that other particular case either. I am curious myself.
The popping drop link? My installer did say something similar to TT Surgeon's post: if you catch/slam the suspension at a correct "perfect storm" angle, the link will pop. But I think sparkhill's ones just popped, do agree that it should be better made, and did get extra ones similar to sparkhill's just in case mines do :-). Do keep in mind the vast majority of links have not popped.
(cayenne_ksa, I believe you were asking about Bilstein warranty? Lifetime. And they are KNOWN for incredible and generous service. They will give you a lifetime supply of drop links; it's just a mild pain in the derriere to change.)
In the end, my opinion is the key to remember is that the alternative coilovers are different, not just better or worse. For track or more aggressive setup, yes consider KW, JRZ, and Moton; or change the Bilstein valving and spring rates as in the excellent works by TPC/Techarts/etc. Bilstein itself makes more aggressive shock than the Damptronic.
But... if you drive the cars frequently on bad roads, and if you daily drive the car, or if you are a more "gentle" type of driver, then stay with the safe choice.
All excellent info posted here, and I agree with bbywu (yes he's a wealth of info), *if* you want something different from Bilstein, the choices narrow down to three: KW V3, JRZ, and Moton.
But... one thing I would like to add is that the key to concentrate on is not that those 3 alternatives are "better," which they are, but that they are DIFFERENT. They are stiffer and designed for a different purpose: more aggressive and track oriented, less "daily drive." I am 100% certain this is the case for JRZ and Moton, and not sure but think it applies to KW as well. The shock absorbers in these coilovers are designed for much stiffer spring rates, so it is NOT a simple matter of switching out the springs either (again, less sure about KW).
(Larry, same thing about the Techarts, "different," not necessarily better. The Techart to my best knowledge is Bilstein Damptronic with possible different spring and dampening rates. Most likely stiffer but since they are so strict about releasing data, no one knows.)
The 2 people with KW on this forum are my forum friend cayenne_ksa and my mod advisor
Gotboost?. You might want to email them for opinions. I suspect that it is a more aggressive setup than Bilstein, but other than a high spring rate in the rear of around 950 (?), versus Bilstein 570, this setup is a complete unknown to me and has very few users' reports/reviews on these Porsche forums.As for quality? Bilstein makes the OEM shock; the ones in your car now IS made by Bilstein. They also use Porsche's chief test driver, Walter Rohrl, as their consultant, etc., so the link is deep and that's why I frequently said it is like getting a factory Sport upgrade -- a safest and most no-brainer of all mods.
Not to say that it is the case, but I agree with TT Surgeon in the sense that I would not rule out installer's error in that other particular case either. I am curious myself.
The popping drop link? My installer did say something similar to TT Surgeon's post: if you catch/slam the suspension at a correct "perfect storm" angle, the link will pop. But I think sparkhill's ones just popped, do agree that it should be better made, and did get extra ones similar to sparkhill's just in case mines do :-). Do keep in mind the vast majority of links have not popped.
(cayenne_ksa, I believe you were asking about Bilstein warranty? Lifetime. And they are KNOWN for incredible and generous service. They will give you a lifetime supply of drop links
; it's just a mild pain in the derriere to change.)In the end, my opinion is the key to remember is that the alternative coilovers are different, not just better or worse. For track or more aggressive setup, yes consider KW, JRZ, and Moton; or change the Bilstein valving and spring rates as in the excellent works by TPC/Techarts/etc. Bilstein itself makes more aggressive shock than the Damptronic.
But... if you drive the cars frequently on bad roads, and if you daily drive the car, or if you are a more "gentle" type of driver, then stay with the safe choice.
I've also had the JRZ's. Great handling(if you're on a smooth road). The ride is extremely stiff even at a 400 front 500 rear spring rate. For mostly track use or if the roads around you are smooth, this is an awesome setup. It was way too much for our roads here in California.
I currently have the KV V3's (all other parts constant from the JRZ setup.. sways, droplinks, toe links, and top mounts). It is a great compromise between the stock setup and the JRZ setup. The ride quality is greatly improved over the JRZ's, but you don't lose much in performance at all. The dampers work real well over uneven and rough surfaces. I think the primary reason for this is the progressive rate springs used in the KW's. I highly recommend the KW coilovers to anyone.
You do have to disable the PASM function though. IMO, that was a useless function for me anyways. I don't miss it at all.
#43
01-04-2010, 12:33 PM
According to the parts dept, the GT2/3/TT have 3 different drop links and 3 part numbers. I would love to get a hold of a Gt2 drop link and see if it works. This is the same issue that occured with the 993TT lowered to RS specs, the fix required cutting and welding the stock links until Porsche released the RS drop links.
#44
01-04-2010, 12:44 PM
Kinda makes one pause and think about leaving it stock doesn't it?
#45
01-04-2010, 02:52 PM
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Thanks, these seem like an attractive alternative. Will be in touch.
Nice set-up. I've been following your threads. Very impressive. I get the impression that JRZs might be too stiff for me. What makes me nervous is that there are at least 4 recent posts of Bilstein problems on this forum and 1 recent one on the 996tt. Sharky also raised a question about recent quality issues. Bilstein is not out of the question but just wondering what are some equivalent alternatives that people use and like.
Nice set-up. I've been following your threads. Very impressive. I get the impression that JRZs might be too stiff for me. What makes me nervous is that there are at least 4 recent posts of Bilstein problems on this forum and 1 recent one on the 996tt. Sharky also raised a question about recent quality issues. Bilstein is not out of the question but just wondering what are some equivalent alternatives that people use and like.