Review of Cargraphic Loud exhaust & an audiophile's guide :-) to exhaust auditioning.
#301
10-12-2013, 05:23 PM
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Wow that is really cheap - I hope this will keep pressure on competing manufacturers to keep price down. I know they can because for example BMW after-market exhausts cost less, and the components are not vastly different, no? Same cat, same muffler, same metal, etc.
Sorry if I've missed any discussion on how Kline keeps cost down. It has to be something significant. Is it by manufacturing in Asia? Who makes the CAT and core inside? There is a Kline Innovation seller on ebay by the name of Top Gear and there is some mentioning of manufacturing in Thailand. Is it correct?
>>>>>>
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kline-Inno...-/310541724448
We currently have own unique Asian Exhaust manufacturing facility in Thailand.
Sorry if I've missed any discussion on how Kline keeps cost down. It has to be something significant. Is it by manufacturing in Asia? Who makes the CAT and core inside? There is a Kline Innovation seller on ebay by the name of Top Gear and there is some mentioning of manufacturing in Thailand. Is it correct?
>>>>>>
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kline-Inno...-/310541724448
We currently have own unique Asian Exhaust manufacturing facility in Thailand.
#302
10-12-2013, 07:59 PM
Wow that is really cheap - I hope this will keep pressure on competing manufacturers to keep price down. I know they can because for example BMW after-market exhausts cost less, and the components are not vastly different, no? Same cat, same muffler, same metal, etc.
Sorry if I've missed any discussion on how Kline keeps cost down. It has to be something significant. Is it by manufacturing in Asia? Who makes the CAT and core inside? There is a Kline Innovation seller on ebay by the name of Top Gear and there is some mentioning of manufacturing in Thailand. Is it correct?
>>>>>>
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kline-Inno...-/310541724448
We currently have own unique Asian Exhaust manufacturing facility in Thailand.
#303
10-13-2013, 01:37 PM
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Palos Verdes
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C., how does the sound of Kline compare to your Ruf exhaust? Which one is louder? What about low frequency - which one has more low end rumbling?
I ran across some post by Kline saying he tunes the note of the exhaust up 1 1/2 octave (tune out the throaty sound). Then I saw some review from the UK saying how polite it sounds. Then I see redwine's post about how deep it sounds. All a touch confusing.
BTW, your exhaust video is excellent because it records stock and Ruf at same position, with same video recorder seemingly, and therefore gives me an idea immediately of how they compare. To listen to an exhaust on youtube without a frame of reference is worthless in comparison.
I ran across some post by Kline saying he tunes the note of the exhaust up 1 1/2 octave (tune out the throaty sound). Then I saw some review from the UK saying how polite it sounds. Then I see redwine's post about how deep it sounds. All a touch confusing.
BTW, your exhaust video is excellent because it records stock and Ruf at same position, with same video recorder seemingly, and therefore gives me an idea immediately of how they compare. To listen to an exhaust on youtube without a frame of reference is worthless in comparison.
Last edited by cannga; 10-13-2013 at 01:56 PM.
#304
10-13-2013, 01:52 PM
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#305
10-14-2013, 12:33 AM
Problem is costs the same to manufacture for the 150K car and for the 70K car.
Not that's cheap to manufacture high quality product like EP with the best Cats in the market, and under European labor and handcraft.
For those that don't want to spend the $ there is Agency Power junk, and a lot of other vendors that sell their ''premium'' products that are also manufactured in China under low quality materials or quality control.
Bottom line is you get what you pay for.
Simple example here, you buy a set of BBS wheels (E88) Motorsport wheels. Pay about 6K and resell them after being used for 4.5K. Try to do that with 90% of the 'I wanna be products'.
I personally only buy what I believe to be in between the best products performance and quality wise. If I can't afford I just wait until I can. Another simple example is Akrapovic, a fantastic craftsmanship and quality but I won't pay what they ask just because 1 they will crack, 2 the weight savings are not that important (last 10 lbs) 3 they don't offer the proper header exhaust design (In GT3 world) that is needed to achieve max HP and torque, but again even though expensive they bring great resale value.
Pretty simple in my view.
Not that's cheap to manufacture high quality product like EP with the best Cats in the market, and under European labor and handcraft.
For those that don't want to spend the $ there is Agency Power junk, and a lot of other vendors that sell their ''premium'' products that are also manufactured in China under low quality materials or quality control.
Bottom line is you get what you pay for.
Simple example here, you buy a set of BBS wheels (E88) Motorsport wheels. Pay about 6K and resell them after being used for 4.5K. Try to do that with 90% of the 'I wanna be products'.
I personally only buy what I believe to be in between the best products performance and quality wise. If I can't afford I just wait until I can. Another simple example is Akrapovic, a fantastic craftsmanship and quality but I won't pay what they ask just because 1 they will crack, 2 the weight savings are not that important (last 10 lbs) 3 they don't offer the proper header exhaust design (In GT3 world) that is needed to achieve max HP and torque, but again even though expensive they bring great resale value.
Pretty simple in my view.
I'm aware of the costs, but there is also a tremendous profit margin as well. I think the prices are all about 15-25% inflated currently. It's all supply and demand, right now I think the market is prime for a 3k-ish nice exhaust. I think if EP reduced the price of the ep1 to ~3600, he'd sell more than he could make, and probably still make a decent margin on volume alone.
But then how would you then ask FVD to price what you paid 4500 for?
#306
10-14-2013, 02:58 AM
Spot on. Quote me if Im wrong here but my understanding is he is struggling to meet demand as it is....Stef please chime in if I am wrong and you are sitting on your hands awaiting your next job lol. Perhaps Stef and his brother need to work on cloning themselves to accommodate more manufacturing at these cheap prices you suggest lol. No offence Chris but there is a lot more here than what meets the eye and If only you had an understanding of the costs associated to designing and manufacturing a high quality performance/durable product you would be able to understand why some components of similar physicality cost more than others. It is not the component manufacturers problem the cars value has dropped. The customer has a choice...pay peanuts and get crap or be prepared to put the hand in the pocket. I read so many guys on this forum spending fortunes on expensive rods and engine components on cars with diminishing value yet i don't hear any grumblings. Probably because they know the difference between the good stuff and the ordinary stuff and are prepared to pay for the gold. Wise move imho. That's an interesting insight Chris and I'm all for new ideas and suggestions but this one I don't get especially coming from you. I mean you go out and pay $4500 for a couple of new cats welded to a used oem system with a few minor internal drillings and then call for EP and others to drop their prices to @3K on the basis of stimulating sales. But then how would you then ask FVD to price what you paid 4500 for?
But then how would you then ask FVD to price what you paid 4500 for?Your logic has flaws in the fact that just because an exhaust costs less than $4k doesn't equate to it being crap, spending more doesn't equate to better period
#307
10-14-2013, 05:29 AM
Im sure everyone will find an excuse that suits the occasion.
http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=74321&start=15
Now I would concur that logic can sometimes be found flawed in the sense that not everything is exactly equal and that price does not ALWAYS dictate a performance outcome with a component. However, as a general rule it does. Manufacturers can't get away for too long selling a lie for more $ than the next person if their goods don't stack up. The users will talk at one point. Having a lifetime experience in automotive components and manufacturers, both oem and aftermarket, I have very rarely found a cheaper component to be better than a more expensive component particularly one with a renown pedigree or history as being of superior performance/quality etc than its cheaper counterpart. Not saying that there isn't to be an exception found, just that sometimes even when that "rare" exception is discovered, not everything stacks up as being equal anyway. Just saying. I think what you have is exceptional value given that it reportedly doesn't suffer from the drone issues most others do. Quality wise it is hands down better than many as well from what I've seen and heard. Kline has evidently taken a good idea and had it made cheaper in a third world country to make its price attractive, as have many others, but is it as good performance and durability wise as certain others? I'm not convinced at this stage. I just look at the lack of heat shielding as just one thing missing. Design and development is key and therefore must accommodate for the design of the actual car.
Just as an example, I was just in Greece a week back with a few 6 members here and one just changed out a very expensive xpipe system (supposedly the best developed at 12K),with an EP2 and his experience there is a distinct difference between the EP2 he has put on. He could have quite easily put the old system back on or even bought a Kline, this chap is no penny pincher (please don't take that the wrong way either ok) so while he was quite convinced his previous system was really as good as it was going to get he has found there is better out there, and it cost him to find that out...if not less than the original 12k jobby for the "cheaper" EP2 lol. So yep I'll stick with my belief you generally get what you pay 99.9999% of the time. So again, looking at these two in particular (EP/Kline), comparing design and manufacture and so forth, and, reading the user reviews i'd pay more for the EP than the Kline, again not saying the Kline doesn't represent excellent value particularly in comparison to many others.
Last edited by speed21; 10-14-2013 at 05:58 AM.
#308
10-14-2013, 07:06 AM
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Paul, this s can's thread, if you have a question or concern about my exhaust or anything else, use pm.
#309
10-14-2013, 07:33 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fairfax, VA
Age: 38
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Rep Power: 173 mean you go out and pay $4500 for a couple of new cats welded to a used oem system with a few minor internal drillings and then call for EP and others to drop their prices to @3K on the basis of stimulating sales. But then how would you then ask FVD to price what you paid 4500 for?
But then how would you then ask FVD to price what you paid 4500 for?I tried 4 different good exhaust and the only exhaust I liked was EP1
#311
10-14-2013, 08:25 AM
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#312
10-14-2013, 08:26 AM
Just as an FYI, read #9th down. Kline has mixed opinions on what it delivers. May have something to do with the ones built in china wherever?....who knows? Im sure everyone will find an excuse that suits the occasion.
Wasn't a true Kline it was a fake copy, just like a fake Rolex , Louis Vuitton etc
http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=74321&start=15 Now I would concur that logic can sometimes be found flawed in the sense that not everything is exactly equal and that price does not ALWAYS dictate a performance outcome with a component. However, as a general rule it does. Manufacturers can't get away for too long selling a lie for more $ than the next person if their goods don't stack up. The users will talk at one point. Having a lifetime experience in automotive components and manufacturers, both oem and aftermarket, I have very rarely found a cheaper component to be better than a more expensive component particularly one with a renown pedigree or history as being of superior performance/quality etc than its cheaper counterpart. Not saying that there isn't to be an exception found, just that sometimes even when that "rare" exception is discovered, not everything stacks up as being equal anyway. Just saying. I think what you have is exceptional value given that it reportedly doesn't suffer from the drone issues most others do. Quality wise it is hands down better than many as well from what I've seen and heard. Kline has evidently taken a good idea and had it made cheaper in a third world country to make its price attractive, as have many others, but is it as good performance and durability wise as certain others? I'm not convinced at this stage. I just look at the lack of heat shielding as just one thing missing.
The exhaust runs cooler so heat shield isn't neccessary and if you for some reason want one they will add it, period.
Design and development is key and therefore must accommodate for the design of the actual car. Just as an example, I was just in Greece a week back with a few 6 members here and one just changed out a very expensive xpipe system (supposedly the best developed at 12K),with an EP2 and his experience there is a distinct difference between the EP2 he has put on. He could have quite easily put the old system back on or even bought a Kline, this chap is no penny pincher (please don't take that the wrong way either ok) so while he was quite convinced his previous system was really as good as it was going to get he has found there is better out there, and it cost him to find that out...if not less than the original 12k jobby for the "cheaper" EP2 lol. So yep I'll stick with my belief you generally get what you pay 99.9999% of the time. So again, looking at these two in particular (EP/Kline), comparing design and manufacture and so forth, and, reading the user reviews i'd pay more for the EP than the Kline, again not saying the Kline doesn't represent excellent value particularly in comparison to many others.
Wasn't a true Kline it was a fake copy, just like a fake Rolex , Louis Vuitton etc
http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=74321&start=15 Now I would concur that logic can sometimes be found flawed in the sense that not everything is exactly equal and that price does not ALWAYS dictate a performance outcome with a component. However, as a general rule it does. Manufacturers can't get away for too long selling a lie for more $ than the next person if their goods don't stack up. The users will talk at one point. Having a lifetime experience in automotive components and manufacturers, both oem and aftermarket, I have very rarely found a cheaper component to be better than a more expensive component particularly one with a renown pedigree or history as being of superior performance/quality etc than its cheaper counterpart. Not saying that there isn't to be an exception found, just that sometimes even when that "rare" exception is discovered, not everything stacks up as being equal anyway. Just saying. I think what you have is exceptional value given that it reportedly doesn't suffer from the drone issues most others do. Quality wise it is hands down better than many as well from what I've seen and heard. Kline has evidently taken a good idea and had it made cheaper in a third world country to make its price attractive, as have many others, but is it as good performance and durability wise as certain others? I'm not convinced at this stage. I just look at the lack of heat shielding as just one thing missing.
The exhaust runs cooler so heat shield isn't neccessary and if you for some reason want one they will add it, period.
Design and development is key and therefore must accommodate for the design of the actual car. Just as an example, I was just in Greece a week back with a few 6 members here and one just changed out a very expensive xpipe system (supposedly the best developed at 12K),with an EP2 and his experience there is a distinct difference between the EP2 he has put on. He could have quite easily put the old system back on or even bought a Kline, this chap is no penny pincher (please don't take that the wrong way either ok) so while he was quite convinced his previous system was really as good as it was going to get he has found there is better out there, and it cost him to find that out...if not less than the original 12k jobby for the "cheaper" EP2 lol. So yep I'll stick with my belief you generally get what you pay 99.9999% of the time. So again, looking at these two in particular (EP/Kline), comparing design and manufacture and so forth, and, reading the user reviews i'd pay more for the EP than the Kline, again not saying the Kline doesn't represent excellent value particularly in comparison to many others.
#313
10-14-2013, 08:36 AM
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Palos Verdes
Posts: 3,116
Rep Power: 254 redwine and everyone, pls don't respond to Paul in this thread. Not fair to him as he's been asked by moderator to not post here and has promised to do so. If you have to respond to him, take it elsewhere.
Paul, again, if you have to respond, quote it and start a new thread and just go to the thread I just created: https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...er-choice.html ,
Please keep your promise and not post here, not even one more time.
Now everyone please take a deep breath and repeat after me: "there is no single best exhaust on the market." :-)
Last edited by cannga; 10-14-2013 at 08:51 AM.
#314
10-14-2013, 09:30 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Fairfax, VA
Age: 38
Posts: 1,687
Rep Power: 173 You are asking everyone to ignore Paul because he just have different ideas than you and TTsurgeon? What's up with there is not a better exhaust? We are just having a good discussion...
I though you can express yourself in this forum as long as you don't offend others...
I guess I won't post in this thread anymore before you ask everyone to ignore me too because I don't agree with you ether...
Last edited by LeoLambo; 10-14-2013 at 09:39 AM.
#315
10-14-2013, 09:48 AM
This is so pathetic.. You are asking everyone to ignore Paul because he just have different ideas than you and TTsurgeon? What's up with there is not a better exhaust? We are just having a good discussion... I though you can express yourself in this forum as long as you don't offend others... I guess I won't post in this thread anymore before you ask everyone to ignore me too because I don't agree with you ether...