There aren't any 2010-11 black manual TT coupes for sale now. Is the difference in performance between the 997.1 and 997.2 TT commensurate with a $40k increase?

Off the line, how much slower is the GT3 from the 997.1 TT? Both 0-60 times are claimed to be 3.7sec.

 

997.2 PDK Turbo S 0-60 is more like 2.9 sec.

 

Sorry about your problem. If I may suggest something - you already take a $$$ hit, might as well give this a try:
1. If the problem is you hate PDK, there is not much you could do, I agree.
2. If PDK is OK, at the least give these 2 solutions a try: Bilstein and R compound tire. The 2 together will bring your S much closer to a real sports car IMHO. Neither worse nor better than either GT3 or GT2, but different overall and a better cruiser/daily driver.

Where are you in California? In Northern Cal, I would recommend Sharkwerks; in Southern Cal, Lucent or BBI.

For those with questions about 997.2 vs. 997.1 suspension: the 997.2 Turbo is slightly stiffer than 997.1, but still a very soft car, softer than Bilstein, with a lot of body roll: all straight line, no handling feel. That is why SanchezDDS made the above comment. Those who know cars and who have driven GT3 will all come up with the same conclusion.

 

Cannga,
You are a great person. Thank you for all your help. I know that I will be taking a hit by selling the tts, but I would hate to spend more money and I still might not be convinced with the changes. The GT3 is not your typical daily driver, but I'm not your typical person wanting a car to take me from point A to B. I hope that I don't regret my decision on getting a GT3. My wife thinks that I need therapy, and I'm starting to agree with her. My diagnosis is cars-ADD.

 

I have a 10turbo with aftermarket exhaust, Bilstein Damptronic, custom alignment from evoms, their tune and r compounds. I have always wondered what a gt3 feels like to drive. The way everyone talks about gt3s I want to now what I am missing out on. After my mods the handling feels so much more tight on the track. Has anyone ever driven a setup like this and then a gt3 back to back?

 

1. Suspension mod costs around 3.5k (2.5k part, 1k labor), exhaust 3-5k. Note that while I love the GT3's handling, I've never said the GT3 is a "better" car; it wins some and it loses some. It will never have the low end torque or the cruising friendliness of the Turbo - think Sunday morning ride on country roads with the SO :-). It will NOT make a good daily driver, no matter how hard you try. Your wife will hate you if you ever want to make her ride in it. Think 5000 rpm plus all the times when you think of GT3.
Also, keep in mind you could mod a Turbo's suspension to come close to GT3 handling (especially with R comp tires and esp. if you bring spring rates to 450front/650rear), but you could never mod the GT3's engine to come remotely close to taking the Turbo in a straight line.

2. As I have mentioned, there is NO comparison when it comes to straight line speed, outright win for Turbo subjectively and objectively despite of what 0-60 times may imply. You WILL miss the power of the Turbo.
There is a professional comparison by Chris Harris in magazine article a few years ago - see below. The elaborate acceleration test, while not always applicable - for example 50-70 in fifth gear, is a very accurate reflection of the overall feel of the 2 cars (better than just 0-60) IMHO. Car tested was first generation 997.1 GT3 RS; new GT3 might be a little faster, but the overall effect will be the same.
Yes I've driven 2010 GT3, actually chasing a professional test driver for Car and Driver with my Bilstein Turbo for about 3 hours (the result of the chase was the lead article & review of 2010 GT3, in Car and Driver, May 2010 issue), the 2 of us switching back and forth between the 2 cars: essentially, in a straight-line and especially at lower rpm, the Turbo will pass the GT3 as if it's standing still.

 

excellent post, really just excellent, and love the info on the gearing speeds.

-may I just add that the truth is, the right choice is, you need to have a gt3 as well as a turbo

 

Link to Car and Driver article -

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/..._gt3-road_test

 

Amen, brother...

 

Can -

Did you also modify the hydraulic assisted clutch in your 997TT? It's one think that annoyed me in my 996TT.

 

Bravo, Can! This information is comparable to a research study on both these cars. I absolutely agree that the 50-70mph figure is revealing about the soul of a car's performance. I printed that C&D article months ago when I was interested in the GT3, and I had no idea that it was you in the article. I am going to print out everything that you've stated so far and all that have contributed to the TT/GT3 debate. The graphs and all the discussion is experience guided information that is relevant in deciding which car to chose.

Another way to look at it, the crude question is which car would I be bored of first, the GT3 or TT?... The lack of acceleration and power in the GT3 would wane on me faster than the lack of the tracking qualities of the TT. Can't go with both, but it seems like the TT is the more versatile alternative. Since I am only going to be driving the car on weekends and only on the streets of N.E., the Turbo is the answer! As tempting as the GT3 is, it's just too specialized and ostentatious for a weekend driver for what I can do on the street.

I wonder with all the models Porsche produces, they're clever not to empower the GT3, as to not affect TT sales. Just as the Cayman is underpowered to not affect Carrera sales. Balance is achieved at the expense of versatility vs performance in any car... Ahh, is that why we modify?

Many, many thanks, Can for all the vital information!!!!

 

Karman, you're very welcome. It would be interesting to ask this same question on the GT3 forum, to get GT3 owners' perspectives. I am almost certain the answer and bias will be different.

BTW, I love my Turbo but please don't get me wrong, you will not be bored with a GT3, not if you keep the rpm above 5000, where this car lives (or should live). You'll just miss the power of the Turbo and won't be able to cruise in the GT3 comfortably, that's all. Porsche is very smart, they make these 3 cars that are so different from each other that no matter which one you buy, you feel like you're a winner.

The GT3 has fantastic handling, but has no low end torque; GT2 is among fastest track car in the world and equally great handling, but doesn't have linear response (what people call "purity" I think) and sound of GT3; Turbo doesn't have the handling of GT3, but will kill it in straight line, and is the only daily driver/cruiser of the 3. This is why these debates never end, and why no matter what you pick, you will be a winner. You certainly have done your homework, actually much better than I did before I got my Turbo.

 

No I did not. I actually am one of the lucky ones who is not bothered by the light clutch of the Turbo at all. In fact, I think the GT3/GT2 clutch is way way too hard and detracts from the driving experience. I really would like something in between Turbo and GT2, but that doesn't exist.

 

I used to think I don't care which engine as long as power is delivered, but the more I think about it, the more I want to change my opinion. In another thread https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...ed-manual.html Tom of Champion was talking about the internals of 997.2 Turbo engine and mentioned restriction of fuel system and rods testing 25% weaker. What crossed my mind reading his post is... what else is weaker in the 997.2 engine?

So, perhaps 997.1 Turbo, mainly because of the Mezger engine, will go down in history as the best Turbo ever? Perhaps owners of these cars should hold on and not sell? Perhaps potential owners should look for low mileage samples of 997.1, and not 997.2?
For sure, for the purpose of modding, there will NEVER again be an engine that is as mod-friendly and as robust as the Mezger engine. (It is simply too expensive to be made nowadays.) Unlike the Mezger GT3 engine, which has problem with RMS leak, the Mezger Turbo is about perfect!

So the answer to your question is, NOT only don't I think the 40k difference is worth it, but I actually believe you should seek out a low mileage 997.1 Turbo, regardless of price as it is the "better" car. The 2009 model will be the best 997.1 because of its improved GPS unit (touchscreen right?) and built in blue tooth (owners please correct me as needed). My vote: 2009 997.1 Turbo, manual gear box, PCCB brake, adaptive sport seats, sport chrono. PCCB is extremely highly recommended, if you want to see what it feels like to be stopped by the hands of God. In addition, yellow brakes look yummy in a black car. LOL

 

Can, another revelation! I thought that the 20hp/20ftlb advantage on the 997.2 would be a clear advantage, or at least noticeable on the road?! Actually the 997.1 TT is $40k cheaper than the 997.2. I've been looking for a month -- There aren't any 2009 TT CPO in Black/Black, 6sp, chrono with less than 8k miles... But, soon as I see it, I am going to pounce.

I am truly amazed at the persistent RMS leak on the GT3. Clearly the crankcase is under vacuum, but the seals should not be defective on a new car. Even after repeated seal replacements, I've heard that the design is defective. The argument of the rough crankcase against the seal causing the leak sounds inexcusable. I wonder if a 2011 GT3 leaks too?... That would be a deal breaker for me -- $140k car leaking oil on the garage.

Now that I am leaning towards the TT, there are so many GT3s for sale now, and hardly any excellent TT... Just one month ago, it was the other way around. I wonder if the used prices will go down in January for the 2009 cars?.... I have to wait loooonger....

Thanks again, Can, for all the great advice!!!! If you're ever in the Boston area, PLEASE drop me a note.... I owe you several drinks by now!