E85 + stock turbos?
#106
08-15-2013, 09:32 AM
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Location: GTA, Ontario, Canada
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Yeah kinda my thought too. Though you buy alphas, you want to max them meaning built engine. And now you're looking at $25k. No thanks..
Thankfully the fuel pumps are all done right now. Silly as that is, it keeps me from even having the desire to press forward because I HATE redoing fuel systems in cars. Always end up chasing some problem and ruin the DD ability or put in a loud fuel pump that the wife hates.
Thankfully the fuel pumps are all done right now. Silly as that is, it keeps me from even having the desire to press forward because I HATE redoing fuel systems in cars. Always end up chasing some problem and ruin the DD ability or put in a loud fuel pump that the wife hates.
But his car will be faaaast.I'm very happy with just non-extruded upgraded Proto vtgs, but if I could get just a littttttttle more without headaches then I'd be interested. The slippery slope for sure.
#107
08-15-2013, 10:07 AM
Yeah kinda my thought too. Though you buy alphas, you want to max them meaning built engine. And now you're looking at $25k. No thanks..
Thankfully the fuel pumps are all done right now. Silly as that is, it keeps me from even having the desire to press forward because I HATE redoing fuel systems in cars. Always end up chasing some problem and ruin the DD ability or put in a loud fuel pump that the wife hates.
Thankfully the fuel pumps are all done right now. Silly as that is, it keeps me from even having the desire to press forward because I HATE redoing fuel systems in cars. Always end up chasing some problem and ruin the DD ability or put in a loud fuel pump that the wife hates.
#108
08-15-2013, 10:13 AM
Hah same with my evo x. 725whp, fuel cell, external pumps, etc etc. It was a DD that became a track only car that became an annoyance. It was the fastest thing on the streets, but didn't matter when it was so loud I couldn't take it anywhere.
#109
08-16-2013, 01:41 AM
So we wrapped up the tune today with Todd. Ended up putting in a 5bar FPR this morning and... we're out of fuel. As in, the fuel pumps will not give us any more. Thankfully, we're also at the limit that Todd wants to run the car on my fuel here in town, so all is good. 1.5bar boost all in, decent timing and AFRs look good all the way out to redline. There's more to be had if we ran higher boost, but the pumps simply won't give it to us on e85.
Got new 60-130 time as well. Best I get is 6.5. Things that are hurting the time:
1) its friggin hot in Dallas. Even tonight it was 90* outside when I ran. Todd's seen that colder temps drop 60-130s significantly
2) stock wheels. rotational weight savings make huge impact to 60-130 times
3) 6speed transmission. My shifting isn't perfect, logs show i lost 1/2 second shifting before boost is back. Thats HUGE when its right in the middle of my run.
4) I did not get the ported hotside on the turbos. I know champions vtgs use a custom tial housing, and Todd offers ported hotside which helps hold the torque considerably higher in the top end. I didn't do it, maybe I will sometime. My tq curve drops a lot up top so that would have a big impact on top end acceleration
So I'm done chasing numbers on the 60-130 times. Just going to enjoy the car. Its fast, equals the speed of my buddy's GTR on E85, faster than 99% of the cars I'll run in to on the road. And if I ever want more, I'm already fully set for alphas, just swap the turbos and I'm good. And a built motor.... but I'm done spending $ on it for this year at least.
Based on all I've seen with my car, I find champion's 5.5 claim on 1.5bar very very hard to believe. But with lightweight wheels, cooler temps, the tial housing..... maybe?
Got new 60-130 time as well. Best I get is 6.5. Things that are hurting the time:
1) its friggin hot in Dallas. Even tonight it was 90* outside when I ran. Todd's seen that colder temps drop 60-130s significantly
2) stock wheels. rotational weight savings make huge impact to 60-130 times
3) 6speed transmission. My shifting isn't perfect, logs show i lost 1/2 second shifting before boost is back. Thats HUGE when its right in the middle of my run.
4) I did not get the ported hotside on the turbos. I know champions vtgs use a custom tial housing, and Todd offers ported hotside which helps hold the torque considerably higher in the top end. I didn't do it, maybe I will sometime. My tq curve drops a lot up top so that would have a big impact on top end acceleration
So I'm done chasing numbers on the 60-130 times. Just going to enjoy the car. Its fast, equals the speed of my buddy's GTR on E85, faster than 99% of the cars I'll run in to on the road. And if I ever want more, I'm already fully set for alphas, just swap the turbos and I'm good. And a built motor.... but I'm done spending $ on it for this year at least.
Based on all I've seen with my car, I find champion's 5.5 claim on 1.5bar very very hard to believe. But with lightweight wheels, cooler temps, the tial housing..... maybe?
#110
08-16-2013, 08:00 PM
Got my car back today with everything installed. Chkmgnt referred me to the shop, they were a little slow but considering everything that was done I'm very happy with the quality of the work so far.
The clutch is definitely different than the stock clutch, pedal effort is the same however the engagement is more sudden. The factory clutch feels like a slushbox in comparison. It actually has enough grab now where you could probably break something if you drove with enough purpose.
I haven't really even gotten into boost yet, I'm on the Protomotive 80lb injectors, 5 bar FPR, and E85 tune - but I still have about 1/3rd tank of 93 octane E10 pump gas in the car. I'm going to burn some more of that off tomorrow and then fill it up with E85 and see how it does. I took the car home from the shop in rush hour Dallas traffic so I got *plenty* of start/stop driving on it to break things in. A little more tomorrow and it should ready to let 'er rip.
Hard to say but my impression was I could feel a difference in the tuneup, seemed like the car really wanted to take off and I was having to back off the gas to keep that from happening. I'm assuming this was due to more midrange timing in the E85 flash, but I obviously wasn't hitting hardly any load so it could just that I was driving my Ford Edge for the last 8 days and the 911 felt like a racecar in comparison
.
The clutch is definitely different than the stock clutch, pedal effort is the same however the engagement is more sudden. The factory clutch feels like a slushbox in comparison. It actually has enough grab now where you could probably break something if you drove with enough purpose
.I haven't really even gotten into boost yet, I'm on the Protomotive 80lb injectors, 5 bar FPR, and E85 tune - but I still have about 1/3rd tank of 93 octane E10 pump gas in the car. I'm going to burn some more of that off tomorrow and then fill it up with E85 and see how it does. I took the car home from the shop in rush hour Dallas traffic so I got *plenty* of start/stop driving on it to break things in. A little more tomorrow and it should ready to let 'er rip.
Hard to say but my impression was I could feel a difference in the tuneup, seemed like the car really wanted to take off and I was having to back off the gas to keep that from happening. I'm assuming this was due to more midrange timing in the E85 flash, but I obviously wasn't hitting hardly any load so it could just that I was driving my Ford Edge for the last 8 days and the 911 felt like a racecar in comparison
.
#112
08-18-2013, 01:25 AM
I should be able to get it filled up on E85 Sunday.
#114
08-20-2013, 12:57 PM
I wasn't. Unfortunately my APR tune started acting odd so I switched to Todd's. I dont know what happened, but it was not running correctly and had no power. Initially it was strong, probably more aggressive than Todd's pump gas tune.
#115
08-20-2013, 02:36 PM
Probably too much boost and/or timing.
First the car is a blast and the more you run it the more it runs on "degraded mode": poor timing, too much rich Lambda, and no power anymore...
I had the same with Todd's "bigboost file" when poor octane.
The 997TT runs better a little "undertargeted" than "over".
#116
08-20-2013, 09:18 PM
I got E85 in the car finally on Sunday evening. It has taken me a couple of days to digest everything, and figure out what to write here.
When you consider that really the only modifications I've made to the car that could "make" more horsepower are the exhaust and intercoolers, pretty much everything is coming from the flash tuning and the fuel. It's amazing how much Porsche left on the table with the 997 Turbo platform.
You actually have to drive the car now, as it can overpower the available traction. In one case I managed to smoke all 4 tires from a 30mph 2nd gear roll. I did a test run yesterday evening through 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gears with a friend in the car. First gear was about half throttle at most rolling out smoothly, car still pitched sideways a bit. In second gear it never really even hooked up completely although it went mostly straight - but third gear it did hook and was a certifiable rocket ship. It's a whole different car, it changes the manners of the car from a well behaved supercar to a wild animal that you have tamed, but may still bite you if provoked. My friend is a big muscle car guy, and he was literally in shock at how fast it was.
I will need to get some verifiable numbers but I have owned/driven a large number of fast cars and for the extremely small amount of modifications made I have never seen a car pick up power like this. My dedicated drag car was faster, but it's supposed to be. The fact is the 911 Turbo can do everything, and with this much power it's really amazing. Had I gone from stock to this I probably would have s**t my pants.
Everyone should be doing this. If you can get E85 in your area you have to give it a try. It's that good.
When you consider that really the only modifications I've made to the car that could "make" more horsepower are the exhaust and intercoolers, pretty much everything is coming from the flash tuning and the fuel. It's amazing how much Porsche left on the table with the 997 Turbo platform.
You actually have to drive the car now, as it can overpower the available traction. In one case I managed to smoke all 4 tires from a 30mph 2nd gear roll. I did a test run yesterday evening through 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gears with a friend in the car. First gear was about half throttle at most rolling out smoothly, car still pitched sideways a bit. In second gear it never really even hooked up completely although it went mostly straight - but third gear it did hook and was a certifiable rocket ship. It's a whole different car, it changes the manners of the car from a well behaved supercar to a wild animal that you have tamed, but may still bite you if provoked. My friend is a big muscle car guy, and he was literally in shock at how fast it was.
I will need to get some verifiable numbers but I have owned/driven a large number of fast cars and for the extremely small amount of modifications made I have never seen a car pick up power like this. My dedicated drag car was faster, but it's supposed to be. The fact is the 911 Turbo can do everything, and with this much power it's really amazing. Had I gone from stock to this I probably would have s**t my pants.
Everyone should be doing this. If you can get E85 in your area you have to give it a try. It's that good.
#119
08-20-2013, 10:05 PM
A '99 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX. There are some pictures of it in my profile, I don't own it anymore but it is still running.
#120
08-22-2013, 06:29 PM
Logged my car last night and it is completely maxing out the stock turbos.
Around 5,000rpm you can see boost start to drop off - the tune is requesting ~2500 hectopascal, but the engine is flowing more air than the turbo can supply so it is dropping off.
As RPMs rise the volumetric efficiency is dropping off, and the turbos are starting to catch back up with the demand around 6500rpm.
The log is in absolute pressure, so you have to subtract atmospheric pressure from the value to get the boost value. In this case it was about 990hpa ambient, so peak boost was around 1560hpa or 22.6psi. However as it fell off around 6000rpm it was only making about 16psi. It's probably giving up somewhere in the neighborhood of 100-120whp to Chkmgnt's car with the 67mm VTGs which is able to maintain boost through the rev range.
Anyhow, thought you guys might find that interesting. Above 5K it doesn't really matter what I do, the turbos don't have any more flow left to give.
Around 5,000rpm you can see boost start to drop off - the tune is requesting ~2500 hectopascal, but the engine is flowing more air than the turbo can supply so it is dropping off.
As RPMs rise the volumetric efficiency is dropping off, and the turbos are starting to catch back up with the demand around 6500rpm.
The log is in absolute pressure, so you have to subtract atmospheric pressure from the value to get the boost value. In this case it was about 990hpa ambient, so peak boost was around 1560hpa or 22.6psi. However as it fell off around 6000rpm it was only making about 16psi. It's probably giving up somewhere in the neighborhood of 100-120whp to Chkmgnt's car with the 67mm VTGs which is able to maintain boost through the rev range.
Anyhow, thought you guys might find that interesting. Above 5K it doesn't really matter what I do, the turbos don't have any more flow left to give.