Guys, Yes, I realize that for a specific track only car a GT2/3 is far superior than a TT. However please keep in mind, im not building a track only car. Im building a street/track car. With that said, I realize there will be compromises on both sides, (some loss of comfort for street, some loss of performance for track) However I am trying to determine a good middle ground that I am satisfied with.

Additionally, is Proto the only person who tunes for E85? I was planning to run C16, however after reading it looks like E85 is just as good and significantly cheaper.

-Sayajin

 

E85 is great and I do run it in my personal car, but it is not as good as C16 by any stretch. Hell, I wish it were lol

 

Switzer does as well!

 

E85 and MS109 are pretty comparable. I would agree C16 is better with consistency being the key driver of that.
That said, with the price of E85, it wins every comparison. :-)

 

Could you explain further this difference between E85 and MS109? Consistency with respect to max power delivery, or smoothness, or both?

 

E85 composition changes depending on time of year and location. In colder areas, you range from E70 to E85. Thus, it is not consistent as far as mix. That's my point, C16 is always exactly C16 so you always get exactly what you got the last time. Now the stock ECU and switzer's syvecs stuff will adapt to the different E85 mixes no problem.
E85 will make more power than E70. For the same boost level, E85 and MS109 put out similar numbers. E85 pulls ahead in that is just refuses to knock thus you end up able to run more boost. But you need to build a bigger fuel system. Positives and negatives.

 

Thanks. I read up on it; I assume this is for the cold start problem? Should not be an issue for people in places with hotter climate year round, for example in California? Ethanol fuel stations stay at E85 during Winter months in states with warmer climate?

What do you/"people" do in general when they have E85 - switch to regular fuel while not racing, and E85 when racing? Do you have to flash new ECU program when you switch between E85 and regular fuel or does ECU adjust automatically?

 

True concerning pump E85, but VP, Ignite and other exact E85 blends are available by the drum. Still much cheaper per gallon than C16 plus no lead, easier on O2 sensors, smells better, burns cooler and makes more power.

E98 is also available by the drum and offers even more power improvement than E85.

 

Not necessarily. GIAC does have the capability to tune on E85. It's just not something we were ever interested in with our kits. Since E85 is not easily available for a lot of people, we always tune our kits on available pump gas or standard race fuels.

Remember, I said "I think he ran 5.7"...I'm not necessarily sure because he doesn't like to post on 6Speed. The only thing I'm sure of was his 1/4 mile time...because he told me.

And you're right, I will say "it's all in the tuning"..lol I'm not doubting Todd K's abilities, but I can guarantee we spent A LOT more time on the dyno fine tuning each of our 68 kits. There's definitely an advantage to doing that.

 

I had a bill from Todd that attests to the amount of time spent on the dyno LOL. But overall I understand. Hopefully you get another car to run on the 68's, and I'm able to get good times as well. That'll help prove out the concept you and I believe in - that on a stock motor VTGs are capable of doing all alphas do, cheaper and simpler. :-)

 

Yes it's due to the cold start issues. I run e85 all the time, no need to switch out ever really.

Yeah, the Ignite E85 stuff is still like $9/gallon, triple pump e85. Ideal would be a fuel system that can support E98 - that suff makes power even beyond that VP Import at $25/gallon can do.

 

What are the thought on C85 vs MS109? Unfortunately they dont sell E85 at the pump where I live so running it on the regular is not really an option. Hence I plan to switch maps between 93 Pump on the regular and either C85 or MS109 on the track.

As mentioned above, C85 is several hundred dollars per drum less than MS109, however does it perform just as well? I was planning to run C16 but of course wasn't thinking about the fact that it is Leaded, so am looking at other options.

-Sayajin

 

Power will be comparable. Ms109 won't require injectors, c85 will.

 

Rep point for your excellent and well reasoned explanations.

For normal daily usage, the article I read in Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85#Fuel_economy mentioned that although E85 is cheaper per gallon than gasoline, the overall cost with E85 is higher because of a reduction in mileage. Have you observed that to be true: worse mileage with E85 such that cost is higher, say with using E85 at gas station?

One observation to add regarding comparing VTG to "regular" turbo: while VBox time *is* the gold standard for WOT/max power, it may or may not reflect the supposed advantage of VTG, reduction of lag. It seems to me "reduction of lag" involves both "partial thottle" evaluation, and subjective evaluation, in other words how does throttle input "feel" in normal daily drives; we might never know the answer.

 

Using E85, my fuel costs have risen ~10%. My fun factor rises about 50% though, so worth it. And the first time you load a tank of M109 or C16 at $15+/gallon, throw away months of the cost savings of pump gas.

Response time for VTG vs the 3071/76 sized turbos wont be that major. In other cars, similar claims were made of VTGs and various other configs (like borg warner's new EFR setups) yet all testing has shown that billet gt30 series turbos perform statistically identical. Cost is the real deciding factor I think, and the exact power number you're after. On a stock engine, VTGs just do it all. IMO of course.