PDK Adaptation for Changes in Power/Traction?
PDK Adaptation for Changes in Power/Traction?
What's up guys. So after upgrading to the Champion/GIAC Stage 2 file on my 997.2, the stock tires (Michelin Pilot Super Sports) could no longer handle launch control. The PSS were spinning a lot from the increase in torque. Sometimes the car would even go sideways. At this point the best launches I could achieve from a dead stop were coming from simply flooring the car off idle. Even in poor conditions (dusty airstrip running over a partially-painted surface), I was able to cut 0-60mph in 2.7 seconds (racing a Stassis S/C v10 R8 and also doing a solo run). This was ok, but I was able to cut some 2.6's at the drag strip on the Stage 1 file with the PSS so I knew with better tires I could improve. (by the way, the 1-ft rollout was enabled on the vBox).
Given that I will eventually track my car and use it at events where optimizing the launch is necessary (Airstrip and Dragstrip events), I replaced the PSS with Toyo R888's (which I understand from a number of people are simply the best street tires for off-the-line traction, and they are also decent track tires as well).
After tire install and break-in, I did some 0-60mph vBox tests on some local uninhabited public roads. Despite the grip being much better, I was only cutting 2.9 to 3.1 second 0-60 runs as the transmission was getting "hung up" on the 1-2 shift. The best way I can explain this is that the shift would literally take half a second to complete and of course the nose would dive down and then back up as the shift completed. It seemed like traction control was on but it was off. I tried launching about 5 times and the same thing happened each time.
Some friends invited me to the drag strip last weekend and even though temps were 100+ degrees, I figured traction/launching should be better with a prepped surface and hot temps. Well, unfortunately the same thing happened....using Launch Control, the 1-2 shift kept getting hung up. Even my buddy who was watching was like WTF did you let off the gas or something? vBox was on and the results were 2.9 to 3.2 seconds on my three botched runs
I was kinda bummed, but knowing others have used Launch Control on the PDK, I made an assumption that maybe it just needs time and more launches to adapt. So I went out to my local uninhabited road and tried again.
Sport Plus, check, PSM off check. Brake on, Accelerator to the floor and BAM! Takes off like a rocket with some tire spin but the 1-2 shift is perfect. 0-60 result...2.5 seconds.
So there is it. Hopefully this wasn't a fluke and the PDK will continue adapting affording the car the ability to cut quicker and quicker launches. 2.5 is already in Veyron territory but I hope to get the times down to 2.3 or 2.4 and on a more consistent basis.
Anyway curious if anyone else has experienced adaptation in the PDK when increasing power/grip like I have?
Given that I will eventually track my car and use it at events where optimizing the launch is necessary (Airstrip and Dragstrip events), I replaced the PSS with Toyo R888's (which I understand from a number of people are simply the best street tires for off-the-line traction, and they are also decent track tires as well).
After tire install and break-in, I did some 0-60mph vBox tests on some local uninhabited public roads. Despite the grip being much better, I was only cutting 2.9 to 3.1 second 0-60 runs as the transmission was getting "hung up" on the 1-2 shift. The best way I can explain this is that the shift would literally take half a second to complete and of course the nose would dive down and then back up as the shift completed. It seemed like traction control was on but it was off. I tried launching about 5 times and the same thing happened each time.
Some friends invited me to the drag strip last weekend and even though temps were 100+ degrees, I figured traction/launching should be better with a prepped surface and hot temps. Well, unfortunately the same thing happened....using Launch Control, the 1-2 shift kept getting hung up. Even my buddy who was watching was like WTF did you let off the gas or something? vBox was on and the results were 2.9 to 3.2 seconds on my three botched runs
I was kinda bummed, but knowing others have used Launch Control on the PDK, I made an assumption that maybe it just needs time and more launches to adapt. So I went out to my local uninhabited road and tried again.
Sport Plus, check, PSM off check. Brake on, Accelerator to the floor and BAM! Takes off like a rocket with some tire spin but the 1-2 shift is perfect. 0-60 result...2.5 seconds.
So there is it. Hopefully this wasn't a fluke and the PDK will continue adapting affording the car the ability to cut quicker and quicker launches. 2.5 is already in Veyron territory but I hope to get the times down to 2.3 or 2.4 and on a more consistent basis.
Anyway curious if anyone else has experienced adaptation in the PDK when increasing power/grip like I have?
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Longboarder I appreciate your post and your willingness to post even if it doesn’t necessarily put your setup in the best light. You may recall the friendly challenge on the other thread by “webcarconnection” talking about his 560 WHP tune in which he has not even posted any kind of Vbox data hoping only to post his best run to make a point. This to me does not add to the forum experience. My point of asking him to post is to prove my point dyno power does not always translate to real world performance.
In regards to your question I am unaware of an adaptation process for the PDK. From my understanding our platform will not totally eliminate traction control even when it is off. The car has built in safeties and once those safety rules are violated it goes into a protection mode. In the case of traction control when it is off it allows the rear tires to spin faster than the front tires only by a preprogrammed margin. Once those margins are exceeded due to increase power it does something which almost feel like fuel cut. This is to prevent the car from losing control. There has been threads of 997.2 TTS owner who have complained of this features. It is not always the best for tracking but it is Porsche way of keeping our cars safe.
I too am having your same experience. As I began to modify my car I am finding it tougher to get traction. I definitely have more power but getting the car to leave from the digs is become more of an issue. I run a pretty aggressive tune and can spin my tires without trying. Many times traction control comes on and as a result my 0-60 is crap even with traction control off. When the car was new going 0-60 in 2.7 seconds was the norm but with an aggressive tune I cannot go 0-60 in less than 2.9 seconds now with R888. In fact Mitch from Cobbs and I had an email exchange about this a couple of days ago. I was suggesting future changes to his program which would allow for boost by gear. Currently they have torque by gear but since the tuner version of their software has not been released I can’t say for sure it will accomplish what I need it to do. I would love to play with it.
In conclusion making more power is one thing but more importantly making the power work for us is another problem. We need to reduce boost and power in 1<sup>st</sup> gear closer to stock and ramp up boost/power as vehicle speed increases this will be the ultimate solution. Currently with our aggressive tunes it is spinning the rear tires too much thus the issue you are experiencing. Try lowering tire pressure to increase grip. If the tires can grip the road without spinning too much it will not behave as you had outlined. Try reducing tire pressure to 28-30 PSI all four corners to see if this helps. Keep in mind you will have a dash warning but it will be ok for some runs…
Interesting reads of our traction control:
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997-turbo-gt2/246329-pdk-launch-control-anything-wrong.html
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/996-turbo-gt2/226816-psm-off-traction-control-realy-off.html
In regards to your question I am unaware of an adaptation process for the PDK. From my understanding our platform will not totally eliminate traction control even when it is off. The car has built in safeties and once those safety rules are violated it goes into a protection mode. In the case of traction control when it is off it allows the rear tires to spin faster than the front tires only by a preprogrammed margin. Once those margins are exceeded due to increase power it does something which almost feel like fuel cut. This is to prevent the car from losing control. There has been threads of 997.2 TTS owner who have complained of this features. It is not always the best for tracking but it is Porsche way of keeping our cars safe.
I too am having your same experience. As I began to modify my car I am finding it tougher to get traction. I definitely have more power but getting the car to leave from the digs is become more of an issue. I run a pretty aggressive tune and can spin my tires without trying. Many times traction control comes on and as a result my 0-60 is crap even with traction control off. When the car was new going 0-60 in 2.7 seconds was the norm but with an aggressive tune I cannot go 0-60 in less than 2.9 seconds now with R888. In fact Mitch from Cobbs and I had an email exchange about this a couple of days ago. I was suggesting future changes to his program which would allow for boost by gear. Currently they have torque by gear but since the tuner version of their software has not been released I can’t say for sure it will accomplish what I need it to do. I would love to play with it.
In conclusion making more power is one thing but more importantly making the power work for us is another problem. We need to reduce boost and power in 1<sup>st</sup> gear closer to stock and ramp up boost/power as vehicle speed increases this will be the ultimate solution. Currently with our aggressive tunes it is spinning the rear tires too much thus the issue you are experiencing. Try lowering tire pressure to increase grip. If the tires can grip the road without spinning too much it will not behave as you had outlined. Try reducing tire pressure to 28-30 PSI all four corners to see if this helps. Keep in mind you will have a dash warning but it will be ok for some runs…
Interesting reads of our traction control:
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997-turbo-gt2/246329-pdk-launch-control-anything-wrong.html
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/996-turbo-gt2/226816-psm-off-traction-control-realy-off.html
Last edited by Streetgear; May 25, 2014 at 06:06 PM.
Longboarder I appreciate your post and your willingness to post even if it doesn’t necessarily put your setup in the best light. You may recall the friendly challenge on the other thread by “webcarconnection” talking about his 560 WHP tune in which he has not even posted any kind of Vbox data hoping only to post his best run to make a point. This to me does not add to the forum experience. My point of asking him to post is to prove my point dyno power does not always translate to real world performance.
In regards to your question I am unaware of an adaptation process for the PDK. From my understanding our platform will not totally eliminate traction control even when it is off. The car has built in safeties and once those safety rules are violated it goes into a protection mode. In the case of traction control when it is off it allows the rear tires to spin faster than the front tires only by a preprogrammed margin. Once those margins are exceeded due to increase power it does something which almost feel like fuel cut. This is to prevent the car from losing control. There has been threads of 997.2 TTS owner who have complained of this features. It is not always the best for tracking but it is Porsche way of keeping our cars safe.
I too am having your same experience. As I began to modify my car I am finding it tougher to get traction. I definitely have more power but getting the car to leave from the digs is become more of an issue. I run a pretty aggressive tune and can spin my tires without trying. Many times traction control comes on and as a result my 0-60 is crap even with traction control off. When the car was new going 0-60 in 2.7 seconds was the norm but with an aggressive tune I cannot go 0-60 in less than 2.9 seconds now with R888. In fact Mitch from Cobbs and I had an email exchange about this a couple of days ago. I was suggesting future changes to his program which would allow for boost by gear. Currently they have torque by gear but since the tuner version of their software has not been released I can’t say for sure it will accomplish what I need it to do. I would love to play with it.
In conclusion making more power is one thing but more importantly making the power work for us is another problem. We need to reduce boost and power in 1<sup>st</sup> gear closer to stock and ramp up boost/power as vehicle speed increases this will be the ultimate solution. Currently with our aggressive tunes it is spinning the rear tires too much thus the issue you are experiencing. Try lowering tire pressure to increase grip. If the tires can grip the road without spinning too much it will not behave as you had outlined. Try reducing tire pressure to 28-30 PSI all four corners to see if this helps. Keep in mind you will have a dash warning but it will be ok for some runs…
Interesting reads of our traction control:
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997-turbo-gt2/246329-pdk-launch-control-anything-wrong.html
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/996-turbo-gt2/226816-psm-off-traction-control-realy-off.html
In regards to your question I am unaware of an adaptation process for the PDK. From my understanding our platform will not totally eliminate traction control even when it is off. The car has built in safeties and once those safety rules are violated it goes into a protection mode. In the case of traction control when it is off it allows the rear tires to spin faster than the front tires only by a preprogrammed margin. Once those margins are exceeded due to increase power it does something which almost feel like fuel cut. This is to prevent the car from losing control. There has been threads of 997.2 TTS owner who have complained of this features. It is not always the best for tracking but it is Porsche way of keeping our cars safe.
I too am having your same experience. As I began to modify my car I am finding it tougher to get traction. I definitely have more power but getting the car to leave from the digs is become more of an issue. I run a pretty aggressive tune and can spin my tires without trying. Many times traction control comes on and as a result my 0-60 is crap even with traction control off. When the car was new going 0-60 in 2.7 seconds was the norm but with an aggressive tune I cannot go 0-60 in less than 2.9 seconds now with R888. In fact Mitch from Cobbs and I had an email exchange about this a couple of days ago. I was suggesting future changes to his program which would allow for boost by gear. Currently they have torque by gear but since the tuner version of their software has not been released I can’t say for sure it will accomplish what I need it to do. I would love to play with it.
In conclusion making more power is one thing but more importantly making the power work for us is another problem. We need to reduce boost and power in 1<sup>st</sup> gear closer to stock and ramp up boost/power as vehicle speed increases this will be the ultimate solution. Currently with our aggressive tunes it is spinning the rear tires too much thus the issue you are experiencing. Try lowering tire pressure to increase grip. If the tires can grip the road without spinning too much it will not behave as you had outlined. Try reducing tire pressure to 28-30 PSI all four corners to see if this helps. Keep in mind you will have a dash warning but it will be ok for some runs…
Interesting reads of our traction control:
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997-turbo-gt2/246329-pdk-launch-control-anything-wrong.html
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/996-turbo-gt2/226816-psm-off-traction-control-realy-off.html
So what I've learned is that PSM isn't really "OFF" when the button is pushed. It's just in another (perhaps less-intrusive) mode. The system is still working to optimize the launch (and prevent a catastrophic situation), but when introduced to significant increases in torque, even with better tires, the car may end up not performing optimally...because let's face it, the car just wasn't designed for these power levels.
Now I am aware that some of the 997.2 Champion customers with R888's have cut some 1.4X 60-foot times at the drag strip on their way to low-10 second passes. So I initially thought that maybe it takes time for the system to "learn" the changes. Maybe this was quite assuming on my part that the system could be so dynamic...but in reality it is just going to do what it is programmed to do...and if it detects things significant tire spin, it is going to react. And maybe the track prep was very good and why 1.4X 60-foot times are not the norm...just like my one 0-60 in 2.5 seconds was not the norm (I've done 12 LC tries with my new setup)...but will do this on occasion if conditions warrant it.
I should probably try launching differently and see what yields the best results. My hunch is that launching off idle using Sport Mode will yield the most consistent results, although will never beat the best launch using LC. My car will be down for about a month getting some minor scratches/nicks fixed, a new clear bra and getting my wheels powder-coated, but when I get it back I will do some additional testing and report back.
Cheers.
Longboarder,
I have seen this same type of behavior when I was testing some of the 997.2 stuff. What is your rev limit set at? We have had some success getting rid of this by raising the rev limit a little. When you approach the rev limit hard especially in 1st gear there is a small cut that can cause this hesitation.
Unsure if it is you just barely touching the rev limit but just figure I would suggest raising it just a touch (unless it is already pretty high). May give you the extra little bit to stop the cut out from occurring.
Hopefully you get it sorted!
-Mitch
I have seen this same type of behavior when I was testing some of the 997.2 stuff. What is your rev limit set at? We have had some success getting rid of this by raising the rev limit a little. When you approach the rev limit hard especially in 1st gear there is a small cut that can cause this hesitation.
Unsure if it is you just barely touching the rev limit but just figure I would suggest raising it just a touch (unless it is already pretty high). May give you the extra little bit to stop the cut out from occurring.
Hopefully you get it sorted!
-Mitch
I can tell you from my experience that there seems to be somewhat of a paradox when it comes to launch control on these .2 cars with higher power. The paradox is that they almost seem to launch faster and better when there IS some wheelspin. I know..it doesn't make sense, but it's definitely something I've observed when comparing cars with different tire setups.
Also...what I've find sometimes helps is to do a PDK re-adaptation, especially if you're someone who consistently launches or drives the car really hard. You'll need a PIWIS to do it.
Also...what I've find sometimes helps is to do a PDK re-adaptation, especially if you're someone who consistently launches or drives the car really hard. You'll need a PIWIS to do it.
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Great run Longboarder, 2.5 secs (0-60mph) is simply amazing! Congrats.
I experienced something similar to what you described once (i.e., shift taking about half a second to complete and the nose diving down aggressively). This occurred the first time I really "floored" it from a standstill after uploading the FVD tune. Vehicle conditions were; car at idle, Sport mode on, PASM off "comfort setting" and PSM on...when I punched it, the 1st-to-2nd gear shift was so cluncky and uncharacteristically slow with the accompanying "front-end dip" that I let off the gas pedal (I thought I had broken something...)
I drove around in Normal mode for about a 1/4 mile and the PDK shifted normally so I came back around and tried a "Launch" (Sport+, PASM On, PSM off) and no issues! I was relieved. I did my test-runs immediately afterwards. I suspect the PDK needed some time to adjust its shift-points in response to the increased boost and TQ from the tune (it felt like the PDK had shifted prematurely and needed to hold 1st gear slightly longer given the raised rev limit). It only happened that one time, and never since, so I chalked it up to an adapting issue.
I experienced something similar to what you described once (i.e., shift taking about half a second to complete and the nose diving down aggressively). This occurred the first time I really "floored" it from a standstill after uploading the FVD tune. Vehicle conditions were; car at idle, Sport mode on, PASM off "comfort setting" and PSM on...when I punched it, the 1st-to-2nd gear shift was so cluncky and uncharacteristically slow with the accompanying "front-end dip" that I let off the gas pedal (I thought I had broken something...)
I drove around in Normal mode for about a 1/4 mile and the PDK shifted normally so I came back around and tried a "Launch" (Sport+, PASM On, PSM off) and no issues! I was relieved. I did my test-runs immediately afterwards. I suspect the PDK needed some time to adjust its shift-points in response to the increased boost and TQ from the tune (it felt like the PDK had shifted prematurely and needed to hold 1st gear slightly longer given the raised rev limit). It only happened that one time, and never since, so I chalked it up to an adapting issue.
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Adam, I was having the same problem with the Pirelli Corsas and initially when I put the r888s on. The PDK did adapt and now it accelerates in one fluid motion. At the track today I was cutting 1.49-1.59 60' and 0-60 in 2.6 (no 1ft rollout)
I'm also pretty sure you can readapt the tranny via Durametric
I'm also pretty sure you can readapt the tranny via Durametric
I can tell you from my experience that there seems to be somewhat of a paradox when it comes to launch control on these .2 cars with higher power. The paradox is that they almost seem to launch faster and better when there IS some wheelspin. I know..it doesn't make sense, but it's definitely something I've observed when comparing cars with different tire setups.
Also...what I've find sometimes helps is to do a PDK re-adaptation, especially if you're someone who consistently launches or drives the car really hard. You'll need a PIWIS to do it.
Also...what I've find sometimes helps is to do a PDK re-adaptation, especially if you're someone who consistently launches or drives the car really hard. You'll need a PIWIS to do it.
Hi Tom, interesting thanks. I guess I just need more seat time to figure out what the car likes best. By the way what is a PIWIS? Is that similar to the Durametric?
Great run Longboarder, 2.5 secs (0-60mph) is simply amazing! Congrats.
I experienced something similar to what you described once (i.e., shift taking about half a second to complete and the nose diving down aggressively). This occurred the first time I really "floored" it from a standstill after uploading the FVD tune. Vehicle conditions were; car at idle, Sport mode on, PASM off "comfort setting" and PSM on...when I punched it, the 1st-to-2nd gear shift was so cluncky and uncharacteristically slow with the accompanying "front-end dip" that I let off the gas pedal (I thought I had broken something...)
I drove around in Normal mode for about a 1/4 mile and the PDK shifted normally so I came back around and tried a "Launch" (Sport+, PASM On, PSM off) and no issues! I was relieved. I did my test-runs immediately afterwards. I suspect the PDK needed some time to adjust its shift-points in response to the increased boost and TQ from the tune (it felt like the PDK had shifted prematurely and needed to hold 1st gear slightly longer given the raised rev limit). It only happened that one time, and never since, so I chalked it up to an adapting issue.
I experienced something similar to what you described once (i.e., shift taking about half a second to complete and the nose diving down aggressively). This occurred the first time I really "floored" it from a standstill after uploading the FVD tune. Vehicle conditions were; car at idle, Sport mode on, PASM off "comfort setting" and PSM on...when I punched it, the 1st-to-2nd gear shift was so cluncky and uncharacteristically slow with the accompanying "front-end dip" that I let off the gas pedal (I thought I had broken something...)
I drove around in Normal mode for about a 1/4 mile and the PDK shifted normally so I came back around and tried a "Launch" (Sport+, PASM On, PSM off) and no issues! I was relieved. I did my test-runs immediately afterwards. I suspect the PDK needed some time to adjust its shift-points in response to the increased boost and TQ from the tune (it felt like the PDK had shifted prematurely and needed to hold 1st gear slightly longer given the raised rev limit). It only happened that one time, and never since, so I chalked it up to an adapting issue.
Ok thanks for the info. Bottom line is that both I and the PDK need more launches. Hopefully one of us will figure it out haha.
Adam, I was having the same problem with the Pirelli Corsas and initially when I put the r888s on. The PDK did adapt and now it accelerates in one fluid motion. At the track today I was cutting 1.49-1.59 60' and 0-60 in 2.6 (no 1ft rollout)
I'm also pretty sure you can readapt the tranny via Durametric
I'm also pretty sure you can readapt the tranny via Durametric
Fantastic great to hear...another 1.4X 60-foot time! Glad to hear that the PDK has been adapting for you. Did you do anything to get it adapt...or did you just do a bunch of launches and eventually the car sorted itself out?
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Longboarder I appreciate your post and your willingness to post even if it doesn’t necessarily put your setup in the best light. You may recall the friendly challenge on the other thread by “webcarconnection” talking about his 560 WHP tune in which he has not even posted any kind of Vbox data hoping only to post his best run to make a point. This to me does not add to the forum experience. My point of asking him to post is to prove my point dyno power does not always translate to real world performance.
the Shop install the IC's today, hopefully will have some dyno and bvox numbers tomorrow
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Adam, I was having the same problem with the Pirelli Corsas and initially when I put the r888s on. The PDK did adapt and now it accelerates in one fluid motion. At the track today I was cutting 1.49-1.59 60' and 0-60 in 2.6 (no 1ft rollout)
I'm also pretty sure you can readapt the tranny via Durametric
I'm also pretty sure you can readapt the tranny via Durametric
Great 60'... what was your 1/4 mile time and trap?
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Dealer claimed at first that this is possible, but then said not for my '11. Also asked about software updates for the PDK, claimed there were none. Slow, laggy response from the paddles - that's just the way PDK is on an '11. Sport Plus does make those shifts come on hard and fast, but the lag from the paddle flip is still evident.
PIWIS is what Durametric dreams about being at night LOL 
haha seriously, PIWIS is the Porsche diagnostic scan and repari tool...infinitely more powerful then Durametric. Most people don't have one because it has to be licensed through Porsche and it costs...oh, about $25k.
haha seriously, PIWIS is the Porsche diagnostic scan and repari tool...infinitely more powerful then Durametric. Most people don't have one because it has to be licensed through Porsche and it costs...oh, about $25k.