After the new alignment..

 

Sure. First, alignment change does NOT affect ride. To explain let me back track a little bit - 2 major categories of basic suspension mods are:

1. Lower and stiffer spring and suspension components: to decrease body roll, weight transfer, and loose movement in chassis. All lowering springs, coilover, sway bar, metallic links, etc. work towards this goal.
2. Alignment change: most commonly increase negative camber to keep tire flat on road in *corners* (not straight road - important point - alignment change is all about *cornering*), hence improve contact area/traction/speed in corners. Alignment change's goal is NOT to make the car stiffer, but to improve its behavior in corners.

So while number 1 affects ride (worsens ride, improves handling), number 2 affects only tire wear (worsens tire wear, improves cornering). How much worsening of tire wear? Hardly noticeable. -1.2/-1.6 is really VERY benign, baby-step change to alignment. Same with the .02 toe out. IIRC the Michelin PSS I had lasted about 20k miles, and the current RE 11 is at around 13k and still going. If you are thinking about it, you should try it and not have to worry about tire wear (occasional tire inspection will show this to be the case). I think you will appreciate the increased grip in corners, and the reduction in understeer, with faster turn-in response. Hope this helps.

 

Yea ride was the wrong way to put it. I should have said handling. I know the alignment doesn't make the car stiffer . So your alignment sheet you posted earlier is what I should use then? How is that different from the GT3 alignment?

 

Isn't GT3 a rwd vehicle? Would alignment differ between a rwd and an awd vehicle?

 

Exactly. But apparently everyone is putting a GT3 alignment on their turbo. So I'm wondering how does this negative 1.2/1.4 camber with slight toe out (.02) compares to the GT3 alignment?

 

Good question, the answer is yes and no. But first, keep in mind that there is nothing "magical" or mandatory about any particular alignment setting; it's not like A is great, and B sucks. It is a basic guideline that has proven to be "likeable" by a a number of people - no right or wrong. It depends on your taste, and how fast/aggressive your cornering is, what suspension mods you have, etc., etc.

So back to your question: should a 4WD car have different alignment versus 2WD? Yes because in general a 4WD car like our Turbo has inherently more understeer (related to the slip angle of the front tire, being a driven tire - but too complicated to go into here), so in general, *if*, and only if you want similar behavior to a 2wd gt3, you would like more front negative camber in a 4WD Turbo, relative to a 2WD GT3.

The -1.2/-1.6 setting, as good of a baseline and "popular" as they are, is itself arbitrary and artificially limited by the fact that our turbo maxes out at -1.2 front (you could not have more negative camber). If it could be more than -1.2, I probably would go even higher.

The GT3 itself has different settings depends on what you are doing with the car (as I have mentioned, NOTHING magical about any particular setting - you adjust to taste and time at the track). For street driving, it is generally set at -1.2/-1.6 (hence referred to as the GT3 "street" setting). For the track, people go -2.5 front/-2 rear, etc., etc. Again, nothing is fixed in stone - you start with a base guideline and then works with your tuner (or test yourself) since you now know :-) what it does. Hope this helps and sorry for the rambling - I get carried away some time.

 

Yes, and I have made it very simple for anyone who would like to try :-). Just print my alignment printout and give to your tuner (and give credit to Tom/Lucent of West LA so Tom doesn't get mad at me for revealing his secret sauce. ).

BTW, the slight front toe-out is to improve turn-in response. Very important for our Turbo because, frankly, our Turbo's steering response is very lazy and slow compared to GT3/Cayman (this is my biggest criticism of the Turbo YMMV); even my lowly M3 has "faster" steering response. For the front, you could set either neutral toe, or slight toe out. I much much prefer slight toe-out as it corrects this steering deficiency. Again, just IMHO, YMMV.

See post above regarding GT3. Hope this helps.

 

This was helpful but let me ask you this. If our cars max out at around -1.2 there are some who said when they maxed our the camber on their car, badly wore out the rear inside tires.

This is exactly what I don't want to happen. Also really my goal in changing the alignment is yes get it to feel like a GT2/GT3 but also get it closer to the 991 and 981 cars. The steering on those is amazing. Honestly I like it better than the 997 and I'll be in the vast minority. To me the 981 and 991 are just instantly responsive to steering inputs. It just seems easier to steer that car when going fast.

Plus don't all the new cars have more negative camber as well compared to the 997?

 

Speedsterr, between Cannaga's epic suspension thread and the post attached below you should find all your answers.

https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...ack-ready.html

 

Cannga, I've got two question, (i) would this alignment setting work on a TTS on stock suspension? If I recall, you're on Bilsteins and I was wondering if this alignment setting is specific to lowered turbos and (2) is this alignment 997.1 TT specific or do you think it would also be applicable to 997.2 TT's? I believe the suspension is different between the model years.

I have no idea what my current (stock) alignment is but I am inclined to check and possibly try out your/Tom/Lucent's secret sauce. Thanks

 

No offense, but that thread is super long. I prefer just a quicks simple answer here. I don't have any other questions besides my last one.

 

1. Yes, you should be able to set -1.2/-1.6 on stock 997 TTS (and on all 997's for that matter; it's really a very benign setting). I have never heard otherwise.

2. No, it's not 997.1 specific; for one, the chassis geometry of 997.1 and 997.2 are nearly identical. Second, as mentioned, there is nothing magical/particularly "must-have" about any alignment setting. It is a "general" guideline/starting point that works for the 997 chassis, and very likely 996 and 991, because they all have similar (if not identical) basic geometry and weight balance. Hope this helps.

 

1. No not true. Not for any 997 at -1.2/-1.6. As mentioned this setting is a benign, "baby step" change in the overall scheme of things. You seem to worry a lot about tire wear; is this your tuner who is saying these things? If so you need to fire him (just kidding).

2. Remember alignment is just one part. Eventually if this is your goal, you will have to do something (as a number of people here) about the soft spring and suspension components of the Turbo: sway bar, lowering spring or coilover, etc. Again, no right or wrong: you adjust the suspension to your taste and style of driving. This is the magic of owning a Porsche - the choices available to you.

3. Yes 2wd Porsche always will have that subtle lightness/quickness in the steering over 4wd, as the steering axle is not also a "driven" axle (in return our 4wd Turbo has superior traction, stability, and safety in corners - what I love). That said, I have driven (at "decent" speed) nearly all Porsche, including 991 2S, and I would say only the GT class Porsche (GT2, GT3), and to a lesser degree Cayman R, has significantly better steering feel than my Bilstein Turbo. Don't forget that as you stiffen the suspension, the steering response and feel will necessarily improve. In other words, as you stiffen the car suspension with stiffer spring, sway bar, and metallic link, you don't just reduce body roll; the "looseness" in the suspension is also reduced, and that, in turn improves steering response (extreme example: a stiff sports car will always respond faster and more precise to steering input than a minivan). This is why I have always advocated the first step to improve handling in our Turbo is to stiffen up the spring (lowering spring or coilover) and add sway bar. Once you have done that, it could become a "forever" car (keep forever) .

4. I don't know the specs but I would hazard a guess that it is unlikely. The setting for modern street Porsche (the non GT class Porsche) has remained constant over many years.


Slawek thanks for the kind words.

 

The only tuner's I have spoken with are BBI and TPC. TPC won't give me info on their alignment, and I haven't talked to BBI about alignment quite yet. I'm going right now off feedback from people on the forums.

I don't want to do springs. I DD this car, it's low enough. I will be doing sways and the DSC though.

 

Thats why i tell people to drive the car for at least 4-5 track events before they change things. Instead a lot of guys will read someone elses setup and try and mod it when they dont understand what the changes are doing. You need to learn how your car handles then set it up for how you like it. Or then there would be one F1 technical team, Nico and Lewis would have the same setup. They dont, it setup for how they drive. Does a turbo have weaknesses? Sure but they arent gonna kill you they are going to hurt your lap times. Can it be improved? Sure but why? Because you want to fix your driving issues and stubbornness or are you really trying to get through the corner as fast as possible.

You might already know and do this but it still stands. Guys have suspensions and modules before they own the car in some cases.