Hi All -

I am in the market for a set of Bilstein coilovers for my 997 C2 non-PASM. I am confused a bit between the PSS9's and PSS10's. I could not determine the difference except for maybe one more adjustment with the PSS10's?

Also where do you suggest I look to purchase these?

All the best and thank you,

Matt (in MA)

 

Do you homework really good. speak to your local pro shops and local racing community. Wholesale vendors DO LIE.
Speak to those folks who do club racing and local shops that do build cup cars and stand behind their work, not those who serve poseurs on a street stock porsches with GT3 RS plastic on them. Ask about what fails and when. Discuss what works and what does not work. Do it once and do it right as none of that is cheap.
Also you need to decide REALLY well what exactly your build is going to get you.

i just went over all that in mosy a month of discussions and investigations - if you are after track setup on a budget here are some options below.

NOW first and foremost - if your car is your daily driver or at least 80% street car - KEEP IT STOCK!
Do not go down this road, Porsche made it very good for a street. 'Street' grade COs are mostly a waste of money. All hype with soft springs and adjusters that are useless.
If you are going to rebuild something that was already done quite right - you need to know what are you doing and why as no one can server 2 gods at a same time properly and no street suspension is a proper solution for a track race car.

If you are after sports - cheapest way is if you have access to USED pss9 shocks with no springs. If you can get a set for a $1K or so - it may work.

You will need to send those shocks in for re-valving - you need to speak to pro-shop so they will tell how shocks much be valved - it is about of $1K expense.

DO NOT consider PSS9 or PSS10 shocks if you intend to get them new. Springs they come with are way too soft for sport so if you start adding up costs of new PSS10 COs ($2800) plus new springs ($750-$900) plus re-valving ($1K) - you find yourself not quite miraculously in the territory of JRZ RS (which I am getting now for $3200 with no springs).

As it was told may times - Moton, JRZ, Ohlin are race quality COs. Lower segment JRZ RS are better than PSS10. Get JRZ RS PRO if you can.

All of them need springs too and upper mounts. I go with GT3 uper mounts, there are other options as well, speak to you installer.

Springs you need for track are 6" long mains with tender springs (dual setup), stiffness for track car must be 600lbs fronts 800lbs rears. At this spring rates on a road you drive on your tires sidewalls stiffness alone. it is rough but manageable if all you do is to drive to a track. I have had very stiff cars before so I am not overly conserned but for a DD car it is NOT a solution.

PSS9 and PSS10 have differences inside and overall opinion I got so far - PSS10 is way better done inside and valving is better and adjustmens are more accurate but re-valved PSS9 will be OK too. All those solutions have their own issues and you have to do you homework to avoid mistakes like one I did when I got JICs Cross just to find later that it will not work at all for me and will be dangerous to use on a track. It requires a lot of investigation to get it done more or less rigth.

So, by a bare minimum along with COs you also need 4 front GT3 LCAs as they go to front and rear, GT3 upper mounts front and rear, front adjustable thrust arms, rear adjustable toe links, GMG (or stock GT3) sway bars front/rear.

Then next step is to add rear dogbones, rear adjustable throw arms, billet stell monoball LCA ends, solid LCA bushings.

 

Hi Matt,

Check out http://www.bilsteinus.com/305bilstei...ationguide.pdf. Read the bottom left of page 12. I think you need PSS9's vs PSS10's.

When my car was in the shop for the TPC turbo I opted to add several suspension parts including bilstein coilovers (PSS10s for my C4) after I was a front seat passenger in another turbo'd car that had a stock suspension. I felt like I was in a jet powered rubber raft that was pitching and bucking all over the place because of the aggressive driving and added power. My car now has the coilovers, swaybars, drop links and toe links and a realignment. Frankly most of my faster driving is on the highway so it was probably unnecessary but I don't regret the changes as it does handle much better but remains nearly as comfortable driving around town as stock.

On another car, I started with swaybars and then added coilovers later. I felt the swaybars were the biggest bang for the buck in that it helped the car remain level in faster turns.

Good luck.

Bob

 

This all depends on what you are looking for. Are you looking for a better looking car? Or are you looking for handling?

As Bob stated, Swaybars are the absolute best modification you can make to any modern porsche. If someone approaches us regarding racing or more power bars are our absolute first recommendation.

I would start with bars and then move to Coils and see if they are necessary.

We sell both Bilstein and JRZ(we also own JRZ USA)

 

I am on my third set of C/O's and I will echo what others have said. Talk to a pro shop, someplace like GMG or TPC. Tell them what you are are looking for and then trust them. Include any future goals. If you know you are eventually going to want to go with an aggressive setup then its better to go big early and save the headache of replacing everything later. Plus its cheaper, trust me. Research on this forum or others will net you a lot of differing opinions that are often wrong. Trusting a wholesaler is also the wrong way to go as others have said. So, if I were you, I would call up TPC, Synergy or GMG depending on what coast you are closer to and let the experts take care of you. A great piece of advice I once got was to trust the shops that actually have their own race teams.

Jason

 

So Jason, have you decided to go with Motons finally, or is it still undecided?

 

My car is still at GMG... going on three weeks now... been so long I dont even remember what my baby looks like! I will post the details when I get it back!

Jason

 

Utkinpol has given some very good non partizan advice. I think the problem lies in the grey area. If you want to keep a relatively streetable car but make it lower, consider springs for the look and much less money (don't forget, after install on adjustable suspension you should get a corner balance and expensive alignment). One well respected forum member actually got worse lap times with H&R sways and PSS9s installed compared to OEM suspension.

If you want to get a car ready for the track, things are going to get pricey to match Porsche's exceptional suspension design. The job needs to be looked at as a whole, no just suspension. If the car is lowered, you need rear toe links. If the suspension is stiffened up, you should get Swaybars to match the suspension. Now you're into car setup including alignment, dialing out swaybar preload, corner blanacing... You see where I'm headed with this. I think a well thought out suspension upgrade will put you into a five figure price tag.

I must stress, this is my OPINION based on much research.

Upgrade the look and reduce body roll a bit - springs + alignment + rear toe kit

*Note, I just realized that this post has nothing to do with your original question but since I've already typed it, it's up to you to take it into consideration. Either way, keep enjoying your car.

 

I have a Carrera with bilstein PSS9's, my car didn't come with PASM. I like the PSS9's a lot, and I have really great settings that are perfect for the street and track. I cannot comment on my lap times, because I don't care about that. The car feels much more stable, and rebounds perfectly. My ride height is just right even with a chin spoiler. They do make a noticeable difference in performance, well worth the money.

I had H&R's before the bilsteins and it was a mistake. I purchased through AWE and they installed them as well.

My fronts are set to 6 and my rears 7. (higher the number the softer). I can't comment on the pss10's or any other setup other then what I have had.

 

Competitive sport is a hard thing to swallow. you cannot be half-modded or half-improved as you cannot be half-pregnant...
It is all about compromises. PSS9 is a good product and I bet it makes a heck of a difference. JRZ is a better product. Ohlins COs is even better product.

Each person draws his own line of where to stop with this. My opinion is - if you decided to build a competitive car - you got to use competitive components. Otherwise it sort of defeats the purpose.

 

The OP didn't ask about JRZs, he asked about Bilsteins, PSS9's and PSS10's. Nor did he mentions anything about competition. I have no idea what you're talking about. My GT3 has Bilsteins from the factory does that mean it's half pregnant too? Keep to the point. If you're going to post answer the question asked and don't go off on tangents. Seriously, you're just like that youtube vid.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest for street driving the coil-overs only will "feel" better than the stock suspension. I was able to drive a PSS9 equipped cayman this weekend and I did notice that the suspension was much better at soaking up and smoothing out some of the hard bumps and road irregularities than my stock suspension does.

 

you should drink less coffee Scott.
point was very simple actually - if a car is your daily driver and not used exclusively for autosport - it is wiser to keep it stock. one can do whatever one decides to do.

your stock gt3 is a stock GT3. properly done improved GT3 with ohlins will beat you. it is all quite simple, really. would you put ohlins on a DD car? no. no reason. same as there is no reason to put PSS9 with their default pre-packaged springs on a track car. that was the point.

 

My personal feeling is that stock 911s ride worse because they are too soft.

Small bumps are usually not a problem with high quality C/Os as they are quite compliant in this situation, however on more undulating surfaces they keep the car more in control with less movement.

This is not enough thought as weight shift is also not as easy to control with the softer standard sway bars, so updated bars are probably going to be necessary to really get the car to feel good.

You may feel different thought. Porsche did an excellent job to start with for an every day sports car. I personally find that GT3s more controlled movements results in a better more comfortable ride even on fairly rough roads; your feelings may differ.

Quality components are not enough thought. Proper setup, including a good alignment and making sure all components work well with each other. Then finally getting all shock and bar setting to preferable settings and you will finally be happy.

If you do go this route though, work only with a shop with a lot of experience with your model car and get a test drive with a similar set up car if possible.

Even after this, be prepared for some disappointments and many days trying to sort things out to finally get to that holly grail.

Best of luck.

 

Some good points, but I have some issues as well. Not trying to be argumentative, so please don't take any of this the wrong way.

Well I agree that speaking to someone that is not just a reseller is the way to go, I will stress that an experienced sales person that properly prequalifies you is the key. Skip someone that tries to milk you for all that you have.

My objective when asked on what suspension to put on is to find out what will best suit your needs. I NEVER oversell and will always ask the following.

How much street?
How much track?
If you track, what facility?
How many days a year?
What run group?
What other mods are done to the car?
What tires?
How do you like your car to handle?
Swaybars or no swaybars?

It is questions like these that help me determine if you are ready for that race car setup or something less agressive.

Let's face it, if you don't know what you are doing and you install a set of 2, 3, or 4 way adjustable shocks, you can RUIN the handling of your car. You can also make it unsafe!

More often then not, a set of PSS9's or 10's are the way to go. Easy to install, simple to set up, and very well made.

Ok, that is where you lost me.

Softer springs and useless adjusters is simply not true.

Bilstein was contracted by Porsche to make the PASM coilovers. For those of you that have PASM, can you feel the difference in ride quality when you hit that little button on your dash? I bet you can.

Same thing with a Bilstein PSS kit. Click the adjuster **** and you WILL feel a difference. Don't belive me? Put them on a shock dyno. Trust me, they work.

Bilstein's coilover kits were never designed to compete with the full race stuff from Moton, JRZ, and so on. They are street coilovers designed to be just that.

Why do they offer them? Because that is all that some users need. Keep things simple. Not every user is going to take the time to analyze data after every session. They just want to firm up the ride, get a more agressive stance, and lower the CG.


You are absolutely right, but telling a guy that is doing 3-5 track days a year that he needs to invest in a Cup-esque suspension is simply bad advice. That money is better spent elsewhere... You have to agree, no?

Again, I think this is a little overkill. Also, having no warranty in my eyes is a big risk and something that should be considered. Plus, revalving takes skill, and not everyone knows what they are doing.

Read Matt(in MA)'s orginal question.

What if Matt is not ready for 700 or 800 lb springs? Let's face it, that much rate, even with the highest quality damper, is going to be pretty firm.

What if he lives in area of the country that gets a lot of rain? Pretty stiff for a rain set up, no?

Does Matt even know the difference between compression and rebound?

While it is clear that you are past the point of your standard off the shelf kit, the majority of the population is not.

That is a good thing though and that is what makes this sport so much fun!

Again, not trying to start a war. I just had to clear the air.