A 6speeder's response to another thread had me thinking about my braking technique in my stock 2009 C2. I feel like I'm giving up a lot in the way of lap times during my braking and, honestly, my data logger shows it. I no longer coast into braking (i.e., off throttle early, wait it out or "coasting" until I know I can make my braking point and then begin braking) thanks to instructors and my Traqmate but I know I can get more efficiency out of the braking process. I searched the forums and got some good info but was looking for some more input.

Braking will be a focal point at my next track day in a few weeks and would like to try out some differing styles. Putting aside confidence level, as I know some guys feel better about braking later than I do, how do you guys do it? Slowly and progressively adding brake pressure until you slow to your target speed? Quickly build pressure for a shorter period of time? Or, am I being too whimpy and need to just whomp on the pedal like a horse trained to count? Also, do you guys get into ABS at every turn? I never get into ABS on track but I routinely have my front tires lightly chirping under heavy braking. Just looking to read some good ideas.

What say you, 6speed?!

 

I am a late braker, I had a great instructor that taught me the gas pedal is and on off switch (on the most part), not a dimmer (there are spots when you need to feather a little), and the braking is a hard on then gradually off as you trail brake through the corner. He taught me be yelling 10, 10, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 really fast. In other words 10 is full on (I call it Fred Flintstone braking) and then gradually letting off the brake as you go around the corner. At that point you should be back on the gas, full when the car has settled down. Now saying that every corner needs different considerations of course, but that comes down to knowing the track and your car.

Does your data logger show throttle position?

 

I brake hard but try to be smooth to keep the car balanced.

I then ease off as i get deeper into the braking zone and then its on to the throttlle. trying to keep the car balanced as I unwind the wheel while hoping to get to maximum throttle if I hit the apex and trackout correctly.


The key is not early apexing so you need to be able to go deep in the brake zone and I feel more comfortable with the feather off technique.

I do not trail brake, as is taught in PSDS since I think its an advanced technique. I want to be more proficient at the brake zone, turn in and track out points before I start merging them together.

 

You are already looking at the right things to do:

1. Eliminating "coasting" Traqmate is great for that (post ttrack day evaluation)

2. Learning that correct braking is where your lap times will improve.

Porsche's have such incredible brake systems. Hit them hard and late and let them work. You will find the need for upgrading your brake fluid (1st) Then getting track day brake pads (Pagid Yellows) 2nd , and then replacing those drilled rotors (after they crack) with good slotted rotors 3rd.

 

Breaking later and harder is faster. But smooth is key.
I tend to brake too hard and too late so my transition from brake to throttle is unsettling. We all have something to work on. : )

I haven't driven a C2 (mine is an S) on the track, but I'd be surprised if you couldn't brake harder and later than you already are. Can you find time, alone on a straight, to practice really hard braking? Get a good idea of when ABS will kick in. Get a feel for how quickly your car can stop when you don't have something scary, like a corner, in front of you.

 

There is no 1 exact way to brake...brake pressure depends on the corner and the cars set up. All in all though like North Van said hard on the brakes first then release pressure. Basically you are either on the brake or on the throttle. There are a few corners were you do some coasting...like turn 5 the spider turn at Barber. There are turns where your trail into with the brake and then modulate the throttle...again it really all depends.

 

Agreed, I was chewing up OEM Rotors in two to three days. I now have the Girodisk Slotted Rotors and they are excellent.

 

A gas pedal should never be an on/off switch, at least not on every corner. In many corners, where momentum should be carried, braking/accelerating should be analog both entering the corner (holding/releasing) and exiting it (squeezing), if one wants to be smooth, that is. Mdrums states it correctly, no single recipe for every corner.

 

No, it doesn't. The best I can do pay attention to the Center of Gravity dot dancing around in the G-Circle. That and listening. Interesting technique with the numbers!

Yeah, me too. Although from reading these responses and data mining my Traqmate I think I'm easing into braking as I was taught not to 'surprise' the tires by jumping on the brakes. I then build pressure to maximum (or at least what I think is max) and then ease out of braking. I think I'll work on doing like you and the rest o' the gang and start off a lil later but with more initial pressure. Time to man up!

Thanks for letting me know I'm heading in the right direction. I'm trying to stay away from modding my brakes mostly on principle! I really enjoyed modding my past Audi but I'm trying to get the max out of OEM for the time being. Seems I have a way to go! BTW, nice car and nice color on it.

That's a great idea. The last time I felt ABS was during some spirited runs on rough pavement where the tires were bouncing during braking due to the rough surface. However, I never felt ABS on the track. Threshold braking? Yup. Definitley on track but no ABS pulsing. I should go out and find a safe place to find that ABS point. Thanks for the reminder!

Yup. Totally agree with you, mdrums. I get that each turn or series of turns may require specific techniques so I know where you're coming from regarding no one way to brake for all turns. I was just looking for everyone's input on their basic style of braking. Thanks for the reminder of either on the brake or on the throttle as that's a mantra I need going through my head to help build confidence with late braking. I need to pick a braking point, commit and then come back and see how it worked for me. Reminding myself to stay on throttle until the brake marker will help ease me deeper into the brake zone, methinks.

Great info and discussion from all you guys. Thanks! I'll be sure to keep working on smoothness and balance while trying to get more out of my braking. I knew I liked this forum for some reason.

 

As I stated earlier, "when the car has settled down", rolling on to the throttle as one is exiting the corner is the only time the throttle position should not be completely down, and Mdrums is correct every corner is different. My point of the gas pedal being an on/off switch is to remind people not to slowly roll on and off the gas pedal in a straight with only a second or two of full throttle.

Quoting the famous Dicky Speedmaster "driving flat out is an art form"

 

i used to do it like that at auto-x - full pressure to that subtle limit before abs kicks in then release, on a track instructors were very unhappy with this and I was told you have to initiate braking slight to begin weight transfer to front and as car got settled and steering wheel is totally straight - only then go to full pressure but not abrupt - 'smoothly'.
all that sh#t confused me at one point to the degree of almost missing my braking section as i was adjusting braking distance and starting point fron that moment when I give '10' pressure to brakes - instead you need to start earlier to establish car balance and only then give '10'. not sure, it is still confusing and difficult to explain imho. or may be it is just what they preach to green group to make sure people do not get killed on a track.

but what I think they say mostly - you kinda still need to do that 10-9-8-...-1 method but you cannot 'slam' on brake pedal, all applications should be 'smooth' and 'smooth' and 'fast' is kinda difficult to do simultaneously. same with steering - not to jerk the steering wheel but turn it 'smoothly'.

other 'piece of wisdom' was to think of all controls in the car like ones in the excavator - gas pedal, brake pedal, steering - they are single control, you cannot drop one for another, it is all connected.
what slowly transforms into next topic of left foot braking eventually, sort of.

 

on a track such experiments will likely end up with your car in the wall - as usually after that 'hard braking' with a subsequent turn section there is a zone with plenty of marbles where your car will just keep rolling right into the wall. i already learned that on my own experience as i managed to stop hardly 3ft away from the wall in such situation and frankly lost any desire to repeat such experiments. they all preach with PCA 'slow in fast out' and frankly it is easier to do than to research to what degree you can transform 'slow in' into 'fast in'. that is better to be done at auto-x.

but problem with auto-x is that you never get to high speeds there and car dynamics at 70-90mph is quite different than with 30-50mph.

 

Yeah, I agree there. I've seen other drivers be successful at that but it is a constant goal of mine to not sacrifice smoothness and for speedy hands. It's tough sometimes!

I have some time in machines with correlated controls like that and I have to say it helps understand how the car responds to my inputs. Never been in an excavator, though!

 

Yeah, what they tell green group is definitely not the optimal way to control the car. They want you to be safe and start with the basics, which is very wise.

For example our PCA preaches for you to do all your braking with the car straight, get down to corner entry speed, and then do your turn-in. That's not really ideal for the 997, you want to do some trail braking, but it is safer and easier to learn.

 

when I did my first track day my intstructor had me slam on the brake as hard as I could to get a feel for them.

So Im more the 10 10 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 kind of guy.

I also think its easier to keep learning your brake distances this way as you get to a slow speed you can modulate, and each time alter your brake zones if you are braking to early or late...as well as trail braking.