i think, for better or worse, chinese preferences will be among the most significant factors in whether porsche keeps stuffing future 911's (and the other models) full of tech and gadgetry. at least that's my reading between the lines from their recent corporate statements, christophorus pieces, etc. management at VW will be under pressure to show sales growth after the acquisition and it's no secret china is where it's at.

 

You got that right. Therefore, we must teach our Chinese friends what a sports car really means.

 

1) I agree with the statement bolded in black.

2) I neither agree nor disagree with the statement in red . I simply don't know but I do feel that if Porsche tries tio build a car trying to accomodate somewhere in the middle on this ... neither group will want it enough or want to drive it long term after the novelty erodes.
This is not the same segment of buyers as the Panamera or Cayenne .

 

Sad, but true. I didn't have a fit over the air-to-water conversion (and I don't mind ABS, or even PDK - as an option), but the thought of e-gas and e-brakes in a 911 makes me sad. The day of "mechanical" cars vs. "computerized" cars is passing and the 911 is being dragged along bit by bit, albeit slower than most. The primary reason being the market.

We (those of us who love what Porsche is and/or was) are a dying breed too.

 

Why do so many people hate the PCM? I love the touch screen on my 997.2. I think the nav is awesome. It's worlds better than on my 2007 cls63 or my wife's r350

Great maps, easy to use, love the touch screen

Whats to complain about?

 

+1... - and also the tech under the hood that no one sees.

I wish I could claim to be one of those "young" people.

I reckon it's as they say - you're as young as you feel...only my knees and eyes sometimes don't get the memo.

 

Hence why most Porsches in Taiwan are Tip or PDK - so I've heard.

 

Contrary to what many say here, PDK does not diminish the sports car feel, quite the contrary - it is a sequential gearbox, and that is used in racing for many years. I can drive equally well 6-speed or PDK, and I like PDK and that is what I have now. Also, ABS, PSM, (good) e-gas, DFI, PASM, especially after a couple of versions, are all fine, as those are just performance evolutions.

What diminishes the feel of a sports car is added weight, bulk, and gizmos. Entertaining gizmos add weight and add to the moving lounge notion that cars are now becoming. That is bad for the reasons I pointed and out and also because it leads people to become bad drivers - just look around you on the road - people are not driving, they entertain themselves and occasionally drive, that is when they are not swerving from their lane and crashing.

 

Maybe the PDK is better in high density traffic like in Taiwan, but I've never driven or been to Taiwan.I apprciate the 964 and the 993, but I also appreciate the 997.2 for the PDK and DFI. One can also argue speed limits should be decreased as a result of the proliferation of said G&Gs.

 

Nothing surprises me. Or is it a 'grand plan' to deny our enjoyment of driving a car?

 

Some of the higher-tech electro bits could weigh less than their mechanical counterparts. Modern audio systems are more efficient and weigh less per entertainment pound than old tape decks and radios.

How much could Blue Tooth, iPod wire, a Nav screen, antennae for key-less entry/start, window motors, etc weigh? We're not seriously talking about weight savings with these cars are we? Especially when many of these options consist of a handfuls of microchips.

FWIW, you can save 20lbs getting a base car over an "S". 120lbs added to get 4WD. 187lbs gets you a cabrio. PDK costs you 66lbs. Targas come at the expense of 253lbs. My guess is that leather weighs more than the synthetic counterparts as well - and wood?

While I like my PDK, I cannot see arguing for it while arguing against weight. I could have never been a good lawyer perhaps.

I get it that many of these options that add significant weight are options that can be skipped. But, like NAV, Bose audio, PDK, and "S", often they are not skipped. PDK/S cars are dragging around another 86lbs that could have been saved were weight really a priority. So when PAG offers these weighty options considered as pointless gadget weight, do we also want them to get rid of the Cabrio, Targas, PDK and "S" choices - make it really pure?

I'd argue, for instance, that getting rid of the mechanical e-brake probably saves weight, but I bet it also gets a thumbs down from purists - and maybe it should, but I just don't buy the weight arguments for most of this.

And isn't the 991 rumored to weigh slightly less anyway - because it is "more technology based"?

 

I have owned my 997.2 for 15 months and my 3.2 for 8 months. On the 997.2 I'm partly distracted from the actual driving due to 1) Fine tuning the BOSE's sound output, 2) Deciding when to take or return a phone call on the PCM, 3) Checking on what the outside temperature is on the instrument cluster, 4) Adjusting the back and thigh bolsters of my adaptive sports seats to keep me as snug as possible and 4) trying to adjust the cup holders fitment.

On my 911 3.2 I don't drink coffee, don't answer any phone calls and have a better sound system to listen too (keep reading you will know what I mean) I'm more focused on 1) nailing each gear shift (I am sure many hear are familiar with the old school 915 gearbox which needs a sympathetic touch to reward you and BTW it is an absolute delight), 2) Directing the writhing steering wheel once the RPMs hit above 4 to 5 K and 3) Orchestrating the really complex sound system which actually happens to be the Porsche motor's howling and wailing that starts above 3K RPM. At that RPM it's brisk .... but it's not until you reach 5 to 6 K RPM that the engine really finds it's second wind and pulls fiercely. At that point, I am really not sure who is working hard the engine or me (actually I do know the answer to that ... it is ME without a doubt). The feeling of holding a Carrera 3.2 under control as the rear end lightens up under hard braking is just ORGASMIC.

To answer Larry's question on the 991, my guess is that several of the safety/comfort features of the 2011 Cayennes and 2010 Panas would permeate like lane change assist, adaptive cruise control, heated windscreen, Burmester premium stereo, noise insulating glass to name a few. I do know that you can check off what you want and don't want but how many custom order their cars in the real world and even those who do really get tempted and order stuff that they want and not really need. Hence they set themselves up for more distractions which they don't realize. I am all for technology under the hood and suspension like PTV, PSM, PDCC etc but on a sports car the comfort options DO distract from the actual art of driving.

I'm not partial to the any particular 911 and enjoy both. So please respect my statements. I am not trying to insult those who like technology and gizmos.

 

I think that many of us, regardless of age, (I'm 44) have gotten used to certain features in our cars; especially those that make driving in the 21st century safer such as Bluetooth.

Personally I'd love to see Porsche implement a 4th Generation style, BMW iDrive in their cars, with a "mouse" that falls easily to hand, to work in conjunction with the PCM screen. I find this type of system much less distracting to use when changing music sources, dialing a phone number, etc.... and actually quite a bit safer than having to reach up to the dash and touch my screen 6 times to get where I need to be. The iDrive feature also gives you access to tailor the car the way you want at any given moment in a quick and easy (safe) way.

With the 997 gen forward I actually feel Porsche's communication "upgrades" have actually made their cars more dangerous to drive.

Either give me a truly spartan interior and save weight while removing any temptation to take the focus off of driving or give me the amazingly full suite of easy to operate and intuitive communication/gadgets found in my MY11 550i.

Where Porsche gets a Fail in my book is in sort of splitting the difference.

YMMV.

 

This is a great quote to underscore my position and my reply to Stevepow.

Yes, I know that today's electronics add less mass, (although Bose adds a lot of mass, because subs and their enclosures do have mass). But there's weight/mass and other forms of 'weight'. The gizmos invading today's cars - be it entertainment infotainment, are major distractions for the job of driving and represent a heavy anchor in the job of driving. Driving on CA freeways I observe that traffic moves in clusters of cars, occupying all lanes at the same general speed, as a rolling blockade, and often below the speed limit. This is a relatively new phenomenon and I observe that these people are busy in their cars (rolling lounges) either on the phone or entertaining themselves, and instinctively have reduced their speed as they go their merry way violating all kinds of driving rules and driver's rights. These clusters create large empty spaces between them, but to pass each individually cluster is very difficult. I am sure this situation is happening all over the country. That's the invasion of electronic gadgetry in the automobile, for you.

Note: Yes, PDK weighs 66lbs more than the current manual tranny. But if one is serious about reducing mass (like I am) and pays the 66lb price, one can go without Bose, and electric seats, and additional gadgetry, and this way mitigate the extra mass...

 

For me weight and no-gadgets are two separate issues.

I believe that the 911 could be a great GT cruising car with lots of gadgets and *also* have a low-weight low-gadget cheaper "sport" model.

Window motors weigh a decent amount actually, the other stuff not so much. I am opposed to things like keyless start or push-button start because it is just another thing to break, and it's change for no good reason.

The great thing about simple mechanical bits is they last a long time, and if they do break you can often fix them yourself.

Yes, which is why Porsche should offer a base "sport" model with lightweight cloth and plastic interior. I would choose that in a heart beat. (not just for the weight - I believe cloth is a much better material for car interiors, because it's cooler in summer and warmer in winter).

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. It's perfectly reasonable to have the "weighty options" and let people pick them - as long as there is another choice.

The 997 has already taken a step in the direction of eliminating even the *option* of spec'ing a true "enthusiasts" car, which is low weight, low cost, simple and pure. The fear is that the 991 will go even further in that direction.

Yes, absolutely, that's a good example. I would hate to have an electronic e-brake because I'm afraid it wouldn't working for kicking tail slides. An "enthusiast" wants full mechanical control over his car so that he can play with it as he chooses. The more bits that are computer controlled, the less control the driver has.

Certainly most drivers will never use their e-brake to control the attitude of their car. But for the few of us who do, we want the good old fashioned simple way.

I imagine the difference is in materials. I'm not opposed to modern materials. In fact the 991 will still have steel skin, and they should really move to aluminum or carbon which will save even more weight.

Let me take a moment to summarize too :

Too many cars these days remove the driver from the visceral experience of controlling their car. Even so-called "sports cars" like the GTR, the 458, modern Lambos, Evos, Subarus, etc. - they are more like a joystick connected to a computer which then figures out how to modulate the throttle and brakes for you.

The reason why some of us love Porsches is because it still feels like a simple mechanical car that you are in control of. (though the 997 has a few flaws in this regard)

We just want that pure driver-centric feel to continue.