I tried to search for information regarding this and there were some people on this forum that were looking for pads for their Base model Carreras. I understand that there are Pagid pads that will fit for this model but I have another question that I hope someone can answer.

Hope it's not too silly a question; Is it possible to upgrade the Base 3.6L brake system (rotors, callipers & pads, support brackets) to the Carrera S 3.8L? Would I need anything more?

The pad availability is one issue, the closed calliper is another; I seem to have been running around my own tail trying to find C2 pad & rotor improvements and am thinking that if I could use the C2S brake system it could open up more variety and make life easier.

I've got a couple of mm left on the pad and the rotors are pretty much chewed out. There really doesn't seem to be much option so hope someone could point me in the right (or new) direction.

 

It's possible but most likely more cost effective to go aftermarket (Brembo, Stoptech, etc) If it was me, I'd just upgrade the Rotors + pads and keep the stock calipers. They're up to the task IMO.

 

Thanks for the advice. I'm not sure I see that it's cost effective to go to Brembo as replacement Calipers for the C2S are, on the face of it, something like 1/3 of the price of a Brembo BBK. Could you recommend a brand for replacement Rotors? I'm fairly ignorant to the aftermarket Porsche scene. I've tried looking at:

Suncoast
Evoms
Vivid

They don't seem to have a clear path of upgrade of the 997.2 C2, mainly C2S and upwards.

 

If you search a bit, you will find the parts you need to do the conversion. I believe you will have to upgrade to 997S wheel hubs on the front.

How about a set of Austrailia's finest? DBA Rotors? I had a slotted set on my Audi S4 and they were great. http://www.dba.com.au/
Girodisc makes great rotors as well that may work with the base brakes.

Stoptech makes great brake kits and are not as expensive as brembos. Vivid has these.

ALso, I've seen this 993 turbo "big red" brake kit for 997s floating around as well but I'm not sure who sells it now.

https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...brake-kit.html

I hope the above helps, keep us posted.

 

check options from stoptech for your car, if you cannot find a take-off set of calipers for _cheap_ i would look at stoptech instead. it is cheaper than brembo and works same good imho. closed calipers is a PITA if you want to trqack your car and want to swap out pads every week. if it a street car and you do this procedure once a year - i would not bother, it is very simple to unbolt caliper and bolt it back, it takes 90lb/ft but so what? it is just 2 bolts to undo.

http://www.stoptech.com/

 

Check this out:
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...ng-system.html

They are 997.1 take off but they really look the same as what I have on my 2009 997.2 C2S...

HTH,

T.

 

Get some slotted Girodisc rotors, Pagid street pads, and you'll have more braking power than your street tires can handle. Talk to Craig at Rennstore on your options.

Porsche improved the base Carrera brakes on the 997.2, so IMO you'd be wasting your money to upgrade.

 

i think his beef is with the design of those calipers - in 997.2 they are 'closed' so you cannot extract pads out easily anymore - there is a solid 'bridge' between 2 sides where we used to have a removable rod with a pin in it.

 

The open design on the "S" vs the closed design on a "non-S" 997.2 was a big decision factor for me going to the "S".

With 12+ track events a year changing pads would be a PITA with closed calipers... I could definitively understand if it was the OP's motivation.

T.

P.S.: In the workshop manual, Porsche recommends using new caliper bolts when reinstalling calipers. I have been reusing them a couple of times after some brake/suspension work but still, if I was taking them off a lot, I would probably change them at some point since it is a safety item...

 

Thanks for all the information.

My problem is that I don't know what fits with what. So I don't know what parts are needed to do a 997.2 C2S brake conversion to my 997.2 C2. The new bit of information that I've been replied to was the requirement of 997 front wheel hubs. However, I need to qualify if that comment was in reference to 997.1.

So searching is actually very difficult; due to the 'young' age of 997.2 cars, there aren't a lot of people who are getting on to brake upgrades, much less those who own 997.2 C2 cars. The issue is further compounded by the difficulty of performing search queries where the .2 throws off the search engines and also the already large info base of 997.1 articles out there.

The way I've been looking at it is that I intend to attend some track days even though I've taken a 3 year break from any activities to focus on my business. Since my rotors & pads are up for replacement, I would rather change the brake system to a C2S setup now, so I'm able to have the option of choosing from a larger range of brake bits, depending on what I need.

 

Howie,

If you look at the Porsche Parts Catalog - see PM for link - you will see the differences between the 997.2S and 997.2 braking systems.

The hub is the same for both front and rear axles...

T.

 

That's great! Thanks for that tcouture, an invaluable resource!

 

Wanted to update after some time on this.

Thanks to the good directions from tcouture, I have the catalogue which amazingly is also available officially from Porsche. It's incredible to see how transparent and open as well as technically disciplined Porsche are to make available all this information to anyone. I'm not sure if other manufacturers do this also?

I've had my first track day after many years (I used to race little Honda Type-Rs years ago) and am quite impressed with the capabilities of the 997-2.

Regardless of power & setup, I was able to take it up to 997TTs and a few less capably driven GT3s. I found there to be no appreciable difference between the C2 3.6 & C2S 3.8 on the track.

I used the onboard 'lap-timer' via SC+ and noted that the car was extremely consistent with the times; with every session, the session times dropped with all fast-laps falling within 0.2 to 0.5 seconds of each other. This was consistent throughout the day.

I also remembered how hard I used to work with the Honda and how I used to fight the torque steer and constantly balance traction between front and rear tires. It was a constant dance (albeit very challenging and fun) that really wore me tired at the end of the day.

In comparison, The 997.2 was like driving on a sunny afternoon through some twisty backroads. It was so easy with the PDK that I felt I was cheating. The road holding was composed and confidence inspiring. No more sweaty hands!

The car was quicker with each session as I learned the circuit and LEARNED how to drive the awkwardly counter-intuitive nature of the rear-bias weight distribution in relation to driving-lines!

I was initially concerned with my standard brakes because I had about 5mm of pad left and I was advised that my rotors were already up for replacement. The brake fluid was 2-years old and despite all of this, the 3.8km circuit did nothing to reduce the braking effectiveness of the standard setup. No fade at all.

I finished the day with the knowledge that the standard brakes were more than capable of a easy track-day here and there, and even 3,000 miles later I am actually still on the same pads and rotors! (they are screeching like a MF'er though!)

Intent on attending more of these track days I am acknowledging that I don't need fancy brakes but I do think that I need something more robust. I am looking to do perhaps 5+ of these events a year so I have ordered the Brembo-GT 6-piston 2pc-355x32mm BBK front kit and the Brembo-GT 4-piston 2-pc345x28mm rear kit. Putting in some forethought I have opted for the C2S BBK kit so I am able to sell the kit later; since most people who would buy it would be C2S owners.

The only parts required to do this are a couple of splash guards for the front, brake lines for the rear and pad-sensor wires for all corners. I have the parts list if anyone requires it I can post it.

Interestingly, the 997-2 C2 & C2S share the exact same front & rear hub/wheel carriers and even the same rotors at the rear. There is very little difference between the two cars.

Hope this helps someone else

Howie

 

Your experience is what I found to be the case also, Howie. This is my first Porsche but I have to say the handling didn't surprise me once I got past something I'll describe in a minute. But I'd been driving Formula Ford, which is a tail-happy design in the extreme, and I had been braced for behavior like the S models that were so notorious in the seventies. I definitely agree that the modern C2 is the match of earlier P-cars with its stock suspension and brakes.

I haven't run into a need for more robust brakes, but I'm already running an S and I only do a couple of track days every year. It certainly won't hurt to install quality parts like Brembo.

What caught me by surprise (and took me until my third track day to sort out) is described in this month's Christophorus magazine. Probably as a result of that hoofarah with the early S models, Porsche now design for something they call 'splay'. I'm an aeronautical engineer not automotive, so it doesn't embarrass me to admit I'd never heard the term before, but the effect is what I was describing to anyone in the pits who'd hold still around lunch time of that second track day. And I didn't really learn to exploit until the third track day.

It means their sports cars handle benignly clear up to the limit when driven like touring cars. If pushed in this... well, 'mode' I suppose we could call it, the worst that happens is very forgiving understeer. I spent two track days trying to get that traditional flip into sudden oversteer and couldn't make it happen. This is not a car that I'd be reluctant to put a novice in. But, the other fork of that 'splay'. It's a grand thing. You can't push the car into it with touring style driving. You have to grab it by the scruff of the neck and drive it like a race car. Then it wakes up.

With this car, I can drive it at warm-up speeds keeping up with the traffic while discussing recent movies with my passenger. Tuning the radio, adjusting my seat. Whatever. Then, when I shift into race mode, it handles just like my Formula Ford, carving down to the apex, drifting to track out with the throttle controlling position down to the inch. Generally being lightfooted at both ends and a delight to drive. No understeer, and the oversteer is only what you ask for with the throttle.

Lovely cars, and if you're driving it that way, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if you're running down TT's and GT3's being driven in the touring side of that splay. I was. The lap time difference is easily that great.

Gary

 

Gary, You are spot on!

What I did not mention was that I had the PSM left ON and Sport mode ON. I did not use SPORT PLUS nor did I use the manual-shift mode. I just left it on as if I were driving an Automatic car on Gran Turismo.

Ignoring the horrible driving lines I was making, it seemed clear that the car was at its computationally 'limited' limit. This perhaps explains the creepily consistent lap times. In fact, for the entire day, the difference in lap-times for ALL sessions (excluding the laps I needed to learn the circuit) were differentiated by just 2 seconds. This is for a 2 minute circuit.

I wouldn't be embarrassed if I were you; I am an engineer too, and used to work as an automotive engineer, and I haven't heard of 'splay' either; though I understand the meaning you describe. That being said, I was never involved in vehicle-dynamics. (I was in electrical & electronics).

What you say about the other 'fork' of splay is absolutely right; the circuit instructor had noted that my lines resembled that of a FWD car which would just not work with a 911... Of course he was correct because this is my first Porsche AND my first Rear Wheel Drive car. Up until this I had been driving front-wheel and all-wheel drive cars.

So he jumped into the driver's seat and turned off the PSM but left the SPORT mode on and used the wheel-button shifters. What he showed me was probably a good 2-4 seconds better on the proper driving lines. He was even keeping up with a 997-2 GT3 on slicks (the driver wasn't a bad steerer either) but showed that fine throttle control can do to achieve the attitude control of the vehicle's rear in and out of corners. He's also one of those 'drifter' dudes and showed me the extreme end of that 'splay' that put a big grin on my chin!

In regards to the brakes, I could also qualify that I had stopped using OEM rubber a long time ago; I am using a set of ADVAN Neova AD08 street 'R'? compound tires. Very grippy but very noisy on the roads.

I figured that upgrading the brakes is an important consideration when upgrading rubber; since I will be carrying more speed and will now have a lot more traction that requires more braking horsepower.

The handling is set up so well and the power is more than enough that the dynamic ability of the current (or just superseded) 911 makes it a superb automobile. And to be brutally honest I could even go as far to say I don't even need those brake upgrades; It's more of a case of desire (don't we all?), of convenience and a sense of 'skewed' economics. (i.e., I like the look of big 2-piece rotors, easier to find aftermarket and change pads, it's only 50% more than buying the OEM rotors & pads from the dealership(!?), and I hate the standard C2 faded calliper paint going all whitish grey!)

Howie