RPM per gear
#16
11-08-2012, 09:53 AM
Yes, there is a lot of parroting of information that goes on; that is how information is shared. By lugging, I am referring to driving when, using another "parroted" term the engine is bogging down. I couldn't answer his question because I can't say specific RPMs in every gear, because its like pornography, it's awfully hard to describe, but you know it when you see it. You say its good for the car, I disagree.
The vehicle, the fuel and the passengers are load on the engine (and for retired engineers the golf clubs
). Or in your retired mechanical engineer's mind is it only lugging if you have: (a) a trailer hitched up behind (b) a truck that (c) runs on diesel? Do you know what your talking about when you imply that the stress on an engine coming from a complete stop is not the same relative to the load on the engine?I hope my response is as polite to you as your response was to me.
#17
11-08-2012, 10:15 AM
"Lugging the engine" is trying to pull a large load from few revs from which the engine labors hard to overcome. Lugging is when the engine struggles to pick up the load. It usually occurs due to a lack of available torque.
There, I've tried to reduce lugging to its essence.
I never said lugging is good for an engine.
Cruising around town below 3000 rpm is not lugging.
Do you happen know what engine speeds Porsche's engineers have the PDK equipped GTS to run when driving under a light load (just cruising around town)? It's about 1500 rpm.
If you want to offer free technical information, try to be accurate or quote accurate sources.
There, I've tried to reduce lugging to its essence.
I never said lugging is good for an engine.
Cruising around town below 3000 rpm is not lugging.
Do you happen know what engine speeds Porsche's engineers have the PDK equipped GTS to run when driving under a light load (just cruising around town)? It's about 1500 rpm.
If you want to offer free technical information, try to be accurate or quote accurate sources.
#18
11-08-2012, 10:24 AM
#19
11-08-2012, 10:41 AM
Somewhat relevant to the topic, in my 997.1 C2 with Tiptronic on the highway moving 45 - 85 mph and with light pressure on the accelerator, the transmission down shifts at 1500 RPMs and upshifts at 2200 RPMs.
.
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#20
11-08-2012, 11:15 AM
To follow your request, please list all your sources on any and all advice you provide so it can be clear you are not "parroting" information that someone else told you on a subject that you "really have no idea what you are talking about". Your demeanor is very huffy. LOL
Look, this is not a mine is bigger than yours contest. It just grates me when I read things posted by folks as technically accurate information or advice when the are off the mark. I'm sure that your as passionate about your life's work as I am about mine.
#23
11-08-2012, 06:41 PM
OK, I don't have a PHD in engineering but I've been racing and building engines for 30 years so take my "parroting" with a grain of salt:
"Lugging the engine" can also be defined as operating the engine under load outside of its ideal torque band for an extended period of time. In older engines that had carbs without computer controlled ignition, this could be harmful over time as it carboned up the engine, usually caused some amount of knocking/detonation and usually caused the motor to run hotter than ideal. Again, you would have to do this consistently for extended periods of time to cause any real damage.
In modern Porsche engines that are computer controlled and injected it's really hard to damage the engine by lugging unless you severely abuse it. The knock detector will automatically retard the timing, reduce the fuel, etc. That said, if you were to try climbing really long grades in the mtns and really lug the engine for an extended time, it could still get too warm.
IMHO the best way to drive your P car to enjoy it and get maximum life out of the engine is to rev it no higher than 3000 until it reaches full operating temp. Once it's warmed up, dont worry too much about shifting at precise rpm values. Dont drive like a granny all of the time below 3000 rpm because the IMS bearings get more oil at or above 3000 rpm so make sure you get to and stay above 3000 a little bit each time you drive the car. Other than that, just drive it in a spirited manner and relax and enjoy the car. Unless you are consistently banging the rev limiter you arent going to hurt the engine because they are built to be driven. The worst thing you can do to these cars is treat them like fine furniture and only polish them and look at them.
"Lugging the engine" can also be defined as operating the engine under load outside of its ideal torque band for an extended period of time. In older engines that had carbs without computer controlled ignition, this could be harmful over time as it carboned up the engine, usually caused some amount of knocking/detonation and usually caused the motor to run hotter than ideal. Again, you would have to do this consistently for extended periods of time to cause any real damage.
In modern Porsche engines that are computer controlled and injected it's really hard to damage the engine by lugging unless you severely abuse it. The knock detector will automatically retard the timing, reduce the fuel, etc. That said, if you were to try climbing really long grades in the mtns and really lug the engine for an extended time, it could still get too warm.
IMHO the best way to drive your P car to enjoy it and get maximum life out of the engine is to rev it no higher than 3000 until it reaches full operating temp. Once it's warmed up, dont worry too much about shifting at precise rpm values. Dont drive like a granny all of the time below 3000 rpm because the IMS bearings get more oil at or above 3000 rpm so make sure you get to and stay above 3000 a little bit each time you drive the car. Other than that, just drive it in a spirited manner and relax and enjoy the car. Unless you are consistently banging the rev limiter you arent going to hurt the engine because they are built to be driven. The worst thing you can do to these cars is treat them like fine furniture and only polish them and look at them.
#24
11-08-2012, 07:37 PM
As a retired mechanical engineer, I have to laugh when folk on Porsche forums talk about lugging an engine when they have no idea what they're talking about. They are simply parroting things they've heard from others and really don't know or understand what they're talking about.
"Lugging the engine" is trying to pull a large load from few revs from which the engine labors hard to overcome. Pulling gently away from a stop at 700 revs is not lugging. Slow to 15 mph in 3rd or 4th, and try to accelerate hard at full throttle, approaches lugging. Try accelerating up a steep 10% grade in the mountains from 40mph in 6th, that's lugging. Try the same pulling a trailer and now you're really lugging. Lugging is when the engine struggles to pick up the load. It usually occurs due to a lack of available torque.
30 to 40 years ago when Porsches were powered by 2.0 to 2.7 liter engines with carbs, breaker point ignitions, running at speeds below 2500 to 3000 rpm could lug the engine. This was due to the fact that those engines couldn't produce enough torque to pickup and carry the load suddenly put upon it. Today with computer controlled fuel injection, ignition timing, variable cam timing and lift, Porsche engines produce so much torque at low speeds that it is VERY difficult to get in a lug condition.
Now if you want to drive around at 3000 rpm or above at all times because it makes the engine respond faster, fine. But don't delude yourself you're doing it to prolong engine life by avoiding lugging. You're actually wearing the rings and liners faster and burning more fuel.
You guys need to spend a few thousand miles in a diesel rig to really appreciate lugging.
"Lugging the engine" is trying to pull a large load from few revs from which the engine labors hard to overcome. Pulling gently away from a stop at 700 revs is not lugging. Slow to 15 mph in 3rd or 4th, and try to accelerate hard at full throttle, approaches lugging. Try accelerating up a steep 10% grade in the mountains from 40mph in 6th, that's lugging. Try the same pulling a trailer and now you're really lugging. Lugging is when the engine struggles to pick up the load. It usually occurs due to a lack of available torque.
30 to 40 years ago when Porsches were powered by 2.0 to 2.7 liter engines with carbs, breaker point ignitions, running at speeds below 2500 to 3000 rpm could lug the engine. This was due to the fact that those engines couldn't produce enough torque to pickup and carry the load suddenly put upon it. Today with computer controlled fuel injection, ignition timing, variable cam timing and lift, Porsche engines produce so much torque at low speeds that it is VERY difficult to get in a lug condition.
Now if you want to drive around at 3000 rpm or above at all times because it makes the engine respond faster, fine. But don't delude yourself you're doing it to prolong engine life by avoiding lugging. You're actually wearing the rings and liners faster and burning more fuel.
You guys need to spend a few thousand miles in a diesel rig to really appreciate lugging.
#25
11-09-2012, 09:19 AM
Disclaimer, I am not a forum page developer nor have I been involved with the development of this page or the logic attributed to any of the features on this page. This response is hearsay and complete speculation and is not attributed to or approved by anyone associated with page.
#26
11-09-2012, 09:01 PM
As a retired mechanical engineer, I have to laugh when folk on Porsche forums talk about lugging an engine when they have no idea what they're talking about. They are simply parroting things they've heard from others and really don't know or understand what they're talking about.
"Lugging the engine" is trying to pull a large load from few revs from which the engine labors hard to overcome. Pulling gently away from a stop at 700 revs is not lugging. Slow to 15 mph in 3rd or 4th, and try to accelerate hard at full throttle, approaches lugging. Try accelerating up a steep 10% grade in the mountains from 40mph in 6th, that's lugging. Try the same pulling a trailer and now you're really lugging. Lugging is when the engine struggles to pick up the load. It usually occurs due to a lack of available torque.
30 to 40 years ago when Porsches were powered by 2.0 to 2.7 liter engines with carbs, breaker point ignitions, running at speeds below 2500 to 3000 rpm could lug the engine. This was due to the fact that those engines couldn't produce enough torque to pickup and carry the load suddenly put upon it. Today with computer controlled fuel injection, ignition timing, variable cam timing and lift, Porsche engines produce so much torque at low speeds that it is VERY difficult to get in a lug condition.
Now if you want to drive around at 3000 rpm or above at all times because it makes the engine respond faster, fine. But don't delude yourself you're doing it to prolong engine life by avoiding lugging. You're actually wearing the rings and liners faster and burning more fuel.
You guys need to spend a few thousand miles in a diesel rig to really appreciate lugging.
"Lugging the engine" is trying to pull a large load from few revs from which the engine labors hard to overcome. Pulling gently away from a stop at 700 revs is not lugging. Slow to 15 mph in 3rd or 4th, and try to accelerate hard at full throttle, approaches lugging. Try accelerating up a steep 10% grade in the mountains from 40mph in 6th, that's lugging. Try the same pulling a trailer and now you're really lugging. Lugging is when the engine struggles to pick up the load. It usually occurs due to a lack of available torque.
30 to 40 years ago when Porsches were powered by 2.0 to 2.7 liter engines with carbs, breaker point ignitions, running at speeds below 2500 to 3000 rpm could lug the engine. This was due to the fact that those engines couldn't produce enough torque to pickup and carry the load suddenly put upon it. Today with computer controlled fuel injection, ignition timing, variable cam timing and lift, Porsche engines produce so much torque at low speeds that it is VERY difficult to get in a lug condition.
Now if you want to drive around at 3000 rpm or above at all times because it makes the engine respond faster, fine. But don't delude yourself you're doing it to prolong engine life by avoiding lugging. You're actually wearing the rings and liners faster and burning more fuel.
You guys need to spend a few thousand miles in a diesel rig to really appreciate lugging.
#27
11-10-2012, 01:23 PM
As a retired mechanical engineer, I have to laugh when folk on Porsche forums talk about lugging an engine when they have no idea what they're talking about. They are simply parroting things they've heard from others and really don't know or understand what they're talking about.
"Lugging the engine" is trying to pull a large load from few revs from which the engine labors hard to overcome. Pulling gently away from a stop at 700 revs is not lugging. Slow to 15 mph in 3rd or 4th, and try to accelerate hard at full throttle, approaches lugging. Try accelerating up a steep 10% grade in the mountains from 40mph in 6th, that's lugging. Try the same pulling a trailer and now you're really lugging. Lugging is when the engine struggles to pick up the load. It usually occurs due to a lack of available torque.
30 to 40 years ago when Porsches were powered by 2.0 to 2.7 liter engines with carbs, breaker point ignitions, running at speeds below 2500 to 3000 rpm could lug the engine. This was due to the fact that those engines couldn't produce enough torque to pickup and carry the load suddenly put upon it. Today with computer controlled fuel injection, ignition timing, variable cam timing and lift, Porsche engines produce so much torque at low speeds that it is VERY difficult to get in a lug condition.
Now if you want to drive around at 3000 rpm or above at all times because it makes the engine respond faster, fine. But don't delude yourself you're doing it to prolong engine life by avoiding lugging. You're actually wearing the rings and liners faster and burning more fuel.
You guys need to spend a few thousand miles in a diesel rig to really appreciate lugging.
"Lugging the engine" is trying to pull a large load from few revs from which the engine labors hard to overcome. Pulling gently away from a stop at 700 revs is not lugging. Slow to 15 mph in 3rd or 4th, and try to accelerate hard at full throttle, approaches lugging. Try accelerating up a steep 10% grade in the mountains from 40mph in 6th, that's lugging. Try the same pulling a trailer and now you're really lugging. Lugging is when the engine struggles to pick up the load. It usually occurs due to a lack of available torque.
30 to 40 years ago when Porsches were powered by 2.0 to 2.7 liter engines with carbs, breaker point ignitions, running at speeds below 2500 to 3000 rpm could lug the engine. This was due to the fact that those engines couldn't produce enough torque to pickup and carry the load suddenly put upon it. Today with computer controlled fuel injection, ignition timing, variable cam timing and lift, Porsche engines produce so much torque at low speeds that it is VERY difficult to get in a lug condition.
Now if you want to drive around at 3000 rpm or above at all times because it makes the engine respond faster, fine. But don't delude yourself you're doing it to prolong engine life by avoiding lugging. You're actually wearing the rings and liners faster and burning more fuel.
You guys need to spend a few thousand miles in a diesel rig to really appreciate lugging.
#28
11-10-2012, 01:47 PM
As a retired mechanical engineer, I have to laugh when folk on Porsche forums talk about lugging an engine when they have no idea what they're talking about. They are simply parroting things they've heard from others and really don't know or understand what they're talking about.
"Lugging the engine" is trying to pull a large load from few revs from which the engine labors hard to overcome. Pulling gently away from a stop at 700 revs is not lugging. Slow to 15 mph in 3rd or 4th, and try to accelerate hard at full throttle, approaches lugging. Try accelerating up a steep 10% grade in the mountains from 40mph in 6th, that's lugging. Try the same pulling a trailer and now you're really lugging. Lugging is when the engine struggles to pick up the load. It usually occurs due to a lack of available torque.
30 to 40 years ago when Porsches were powered by 2.0 to 2.7 liter engines with carbs, breaker point ignitions, running at speeds below 2500 to 3000 rpm could lug the engine. This was due to the fact that those engines couldn't produce enough torque to pickup and carry the load suddenly put upon it. Today with computer controlled fuel injection, ignition timing, variable cam timing and lift, Porsche engines produce so much torque at low speeds that it is VERY difficult to get in a lug condition.
Now if you want to drive around at 3000 rpm or above at all times because it makes the engine respond faster, fine. But don't delude yourself you're doing it to prolong engine life by avoiding lugging. You're actually wearing the rings and liners faster and burning more fuel.
You guys need to spend a few thousand miles in a diesel rig to really appreciate lugging.
"Lugging the engine" is trying to pull a large load from few revs from which the engine labors hard to overcome. Pulling gently away from a stop at 700 revs is not lugging. Slow to 15 mph in 3rd or 4th, and try to accelerate hard at full throttle, approaches lugging. Try accelerating up a steep 10% grade in the mountains from 40mph in 6th, that's lugging. Try the same pulling a trailer and now you're really lugging. Lugging is when the engine struggles to pick up the load. It usually occurs due to a lack of available torque.
30 to 40 years ago when Porsches were powered by 2.0 to 2.7 liter engines with carbs, breaker point ignitions, running at speeds below 2500 to 3000 rpm could lug the engine. This was due to the fact that those engines couldn't produce enough torque to pickup and carry the load suddenly put upon it. Today with computer controlled fuel injection, ignition timing, variable cam timing and lift, Porsche engines produce so much torque at low speeds that it is VERY difficult to get in a lug condition.
Now if you want to drive around at 3000 rpm or above at all times because it makes the engine respond faster, fine. But don't delude yourself you're doing it to prolong engine life by avoiding lugging. You're actually wearing the rings and liners faster and burning more fuel.
You guys need to spend a few thousand miles in a diesel rig to really appreciate lugging.
On a side note generally speaking, one reason to avoid lugging the motor is to avoid piston slap. Piston slap can also occur when applying liberal throttle to a cold engine.
Last edited by Steve997S; 11-10-2012 at 03:49 PM. Reason: spelling
#29
11-10-2012, 03:43 PM
[quote=gibbonsc4s;3688090]
Actually Fred provided a very poor response. I say so for two reasons. The first, I've said is because of the, I don't know how to act in public, tone. Like if I replied to your post by saying something like:
"If you had a intellectual capacity greater than a bowl of overcooked, day old, oatmeal you would clearly understand his response was as inadequate as Richard Chamberlain's inadequacy in fulfilling his marital obligations to Linda Evans."
But I have no reason to be a Buffoon.
And you don't deserve that type of response.
The more important reason his response was lacking is he did not attempt to provide useful information by answering the OP's question. His response was a crotchety, half baked disagreement with another response. So it failed to be either informative to the OP, nor constructive. That is a double fail.
As he appears to have a great deal of information based on his professional experience, he should read the OP and give his advice. That would possibly be helpful and useful.
"If you had a intellectual capacity greater than a bowl of overcooked, day old, oatmeal you would clearly understand his response was as inadequate as Richard Chamberlain's inadequacy in fulfilling his marital obligations to Linda Evans."
But I have no reason to be a Buffoon.
And you don't deserve that type of response. The more important reason his response was lacking is he did not attempt to provide useful information by answering the OP's question. His response was a crotchety, half baked disagreement with another response. So it failed to be either informative to the OP, nor constructive. That is a double fail.
As he appears to have a great deal of information based on his professional experience, he should read the OP and give his advice. That would possibly be helpful and useful.
Last edited by DoninDEN; 11-10-2012 at 04:23 PM.
#30
11-10-2012, 04:47 PM
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