I think I just had the IMS failure
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OK...so after some time on my back trying to read my engine code, I have learned two things.
First...the engine code is not easy to read. I couldn't make it out with a flashlight as the indentations had no contrast vs. the surface of the plate they were stamped into. After a little trial and error, I was able to get them to show up by scratching a #2 pencil accross the surface then using my fingers to wipe away the pencil from the surface. The pencil marks remain in the indents and gives some contrast.
Second...engine serial is M97/01 685085XX (didn't want to give full digits) so it has the smaller bearing design. That puts me back to square one. 46K miles on a '05 with the smaller bearing, driven fairly regularly, no warranty, waiting for clutch to fail so I can upgrade the IMS part. The silver lining is I only need to drop the tranny to change out the IMS...bad part is pretty obvious. I am running a risk here.
Anyone have a good feel for where these clutches go out? I am doing mostly city, probably not too easy on the clutch. If I remmember, I think my 993 started slipping at like 50ish...but 997 has a bunch more power.
First...the engine code is not easy to read. I couldn't make it out with a flashlight as the indentations had no contrast vs. the surface of the plate they were stamped into. After a little trial and error, I was able to get them to show up by scratching a #2 pencil accross the surface then using my fingers to wipe away the pencil from the surface. The pencil marks remain in the indents and gives some contrast.
Second...engine serial is M97/01 685085XX (didn't want to give full digits) so it has the smaller bearing design. That puts me back to square one. 46K miles on a '05 with the smaller bearing, driven fairly regularly, no warranty, waiting for clutch to fail so I can upgrade the IMS part. The silver lining is I only need to drop the tranny to change out the IMS...bad part is pretty obvious. I am running a risk here.
Anyone have a good feel for where these clutches go out? I am doing mostly city, probably not too easy on the clutch. If I remmember, I think my 993 started slipping at like 50ish...but 997 has a bunch more power.
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OK...so after some time on my back trying to read my engine code, I have learned two things.
First...the engine code is not easy to read. I couldn't make it out with a flashlight as the indentations had no contrast vs. the surface of the plate they were stamped into. After a little trial and error, I was able to get them to show up by scratching a #2 pencil accross the surface then using my fingers to wipe away the pencil from the surface. The pencil marks remain in the indents and gives some contrast.
Second...engine serial is M97/01 685085XX (didn't want to give full digits) so it has the smaller bearing design. That puts me back to square one. 46K miles on a '05 with the smaller bearing, driven fairly regularly, no warranty, waiting for clutch to fail so I can upgrade the IMS part. The silver lining is I only need to drop the tranny to change out the IMS...bad part is pretty obvious. I am running a risk here.
Anyone have a good feel for where these clutches go out? I am doing mostly city, probably not too easy on the clutch. If I remmember, I think my 993 started slipping at like 50ish...but 997 has a bunch more power.
First...the engine code is not easy to read. I couldn't make it out with a flashlight as the indentations had no contrast vs. the surface of the plate they were stamped into. After a little trial and error, I was able to get them to show up by scratching a #2 pencil accross the surface then using my fingers to wipe away the pencil from the surface. The pencil marks remain in the indents and gives some contrast.
Second...engine serial is M97/01 685085XX (didn't want to give full digits) so it has the smaller bearing design. That puts me back to square one. 46K miles on a '05 with the smaller bearing, driven fairly regularly, no warranty, waiting for clutch to fail so I can upgrade the IMS part. The silver lining is I only need to drop the tranny to change out the IMS...bad part is pretty obvious. I am running a risk here.
Anyone have a good feel for where these clutches go out? I am doing mostly city, probably not too easy on the clutch. If I remmember, I think my 993 started slipping at like 50ish...but 997 has a bunch more power.
Question is, does the small chance that it could happen outweigh the cost if it were to fail? I would do it sooner rather than later, but I am a touch biased
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Jophiel...I don't see you as biased...more so as "well informed".
I guess I have three options:
1) Change out the clutch and upgrade IMS to get some peace of mind (maybe 6K?)
2) Purchase a warranty to get some peace of mind (4K for 3 years?)
3) Roll the dice and change out the IMS when the clutch fails, basically self warranty on this issue
What is tough is I don't have a good understanding of failure rates for the IMS in these cars. If failure rate is a 1 car in 100 per 10K miles and I drive 2.5K per year, I could put a cost on that (basically 15k cost of failure divided by 100 for likelihood of occurence divided by 4 to get to annual occurence). That would put the risk at about 40 bucks a year. That would make me think self insure.
Now if it is like 1 car in 4 per 10K miles...that would be more like 1K per year or basically what the warranty costs. The warranty also covers a variety of other failure types, so if it is approaching 1 in 4 per 10 K, I should be going for warranty.
Sorry...I tend to over analyze...
I guess I have three options:
1) Change out the clutch and upgrade IMS to get some peace of mind (maybe 6K?)
2) Purchase a warranty to get some peace of mind (4K for 3 years?)
3) Roll the dice and change out the IMS when the clutch fails, basically self warranty on this issue
What is tough is I don't have a good understanding of failure rates for the IMS in these cars. If failure rate is a 1 car in 100 per 10K miles and I drive 2.5K per year, I could put a cost on that (basically 15k cost of failure divided by 100 for likelihood of occurence divided by 4 to get to annual occurence). That would put the risk at about 40 bucks a year. That would make me think self insure.
Now if it is like 1 car in 4 per 10K miles...that would be more like 1K per year or basically what the warranty costs. The warranty also covers a variety of other failure types, so if it is approaching 1 in 4 per 10 K, I should be going for warranty.
Sorry...I tend to over analyze...
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Why not just install the Guardian now? From what I understand it is inexpensive. You get the piece if mind, defer the clutch job, and you get to keep (or sell) the Guardian after the retrofit.
quote from the site:
"At just $398.95 (MSRP), the IMS Guardian™ is inexpensive peace of mind. If the IMS Guardian™ alerts, shut down the engine immediately to prevent further damage and schedule a $995 (MSRP)IMS RetroFit to replace the compromised IMS bearing and save your engine. Or take your chances with a potential engine replacement cost of$15,000 - $30,000 or more just to keep your car on the road."
quote from the site:
"At just $398.95 (MSRP), the IMS Guardian™ is inexpensive peace of mind. If the IMS Guardian™ alerts, shut down the engine immediately to prevent further damage and schedule a $995 (MSRP)IMS RetroFit to replace the compromised IMS bearing and save your engine. Or take your chances with a potential engine replacement cost of$15,000 - $30,000 or more just to keep your car on the road."
Last edited by cab83_750; Dec 1, 2012 at 04:30 PM.
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As they said, "unlikely" but who knows. Also, if you live in a State with "smog rules", be ready for a battle.
Good information guys. Here's another question. Can the 997.2 engine just "plug and play" into the 997.1? What would have to be upgraded for a 2005 c2s to take on the 997.2 s motor?
My thinking is if the warranty company pays for the replacement of a 997.1 engine, maybe I can spring more for the upgrade.
Just thinking out loud.
My thinking is if the warranty company pays for the replacement of a 997.1 engine, maybe I can spring more for the upgrade.
Just thinking out loud.
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,473
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Holden,
For someone with very few posts, you are great! Thanks for the info.
My first task this morning was to lift the car and check my serial number. As you said, so far there are no reported 'bigger bearing issues', so for now for us with bigger bearings, we can have a peace of mind. I guess in this case, "size does matter!"
Again, THANK YOU!!!!
And for those who are planning on checking their serial number, I also did encounter difficulty reading the serial number. What helped was for me to degrease/clean the tab, used a mild sandpaper to remove surface crap, degrese again, and voila....it is readable!
For someone with very few posts, you are great! Thanks for the info.
My first task this morning was to lift the car and check my serial number. As you said, so far there are no reported 'bigger bearing issues', so for now for us with bigger bearings, we can have a peace of mind. I guess in this case, "size does matter!"
Again, THANK YOU!!!!
And for those who are planning on checking their serial number, I also did encounter difficulty reading the serial number. What helped was for me to degrease/clean the tab, used a mild sandpaper to remove surface crap, degrese again, and voila....it is readable!
From the 997 work shop manual I extracted the following information on which engine has the smaller or revised larger IMS bearing:
Base engine (3.6) has designation "M96", can have the smaller IMS or revised larger bearing, you will need to know your engine number in order to determine which one you have:
Engine (3.6) number up to M96/05 69507475 has the smaller IMS bearing and Engine number from M96/05 69507476 has the larger revised IMS.
"S" Engine (3.8) has designation "M97", can have the smaller IMS or revised larger IMS bearing:
Engine (3.8) number up to M97/01 68509790 has the older IMS bearing and Engine number from M97/01 68509791 has the larger revised IMS.
The smaller IMS bearing can be replaced, this requires removing the transmission in order to get access to the bearing. The flange uses a 13mm center nut.
The larger IMS bearing can also be replaced but a tear down of the engine is required. The flange uses a 22mm center nut.
Jophiel, I'm very curious to know which IMS bearing was in your engine. I have done a lot of searches and have not found a failure with the larger revised IMS bearing. Often when I read about a IMS failure it never states if the engine had the smaller or larger IMS bearing.
Jophiel, I would appreciate if you can let us know your engine number so I can document in more details the IMS bearing failure.
Base engine (3.6) has designation "M96", can have the smaller IMS or revised larger bearing, you will need to know your engine number in order to determine which one you have:
Engine (3.6) number up to M96/05 69507475 has the smaller IMS bearing and Engine number from M96/05 69507476 has the larger revised IMS.
"S" Engine (3.8) has designation "M97", can have the smaller IMS or revised larger IMS bearing:
Engine (3.8) number up to M97/01 68509790 has the older IMS bearing and Engine number from M97/01 68509791 has the larger revised IMS.
The smaller IMS bearing can be replaced, this requires removing the transmission in order to get access to the bearing. The flange uses a 13mm center nut.
The larger IMS bearing can also be replaced but a tear down of the engine is required. The flange uses a 22mm center nut.
Jophiel, I'm very curious to know which IMS bearing was in your engine. I have done a lot of searches and have not found a failure with the larger revised IMS bearing. Often when I read about a IMS failure it never states if the engine had the smaller or larger IMS bearing.
Jophiel, I would appreciate if you can let us know your engine number so I can document in more details the IMS bearing failure.
Last edited by cab83_750; Dec 1, 2012 at 04:23 PM.
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[QUOTE=muerdeme;3705925]Jophiel...I don't see you as biased...more so as "well informed".
I guess I have three options:
1) Change out the clutch and upgrade IMS to get some peace of mind (maybe 6K?)
997 clutch parts at Suncoast are about $600, bearing is about $600 from LN, say 12 hours of labor. You should be able to get all the work done for $2,500 or a little more. It should be less than $3,000. While they have it apart the water pump might be a good service as well.
With a warranty you have to deal with a deductible, and the fine print. Also, some shops just flat refuse to do warranty work (my Indy) and hassle for claims. They have plenty of business otherwise.
I guess I have three options:
1) Change out the clutch and upgrade IMS to get some peace of mind (maybe 6K?)
997 clutch parts at Suncoast are about $600, bearing is about $600 from LN, say 12 hours of labor. You should be able to get all the work done for $2,500 or a little more. It should be less than $3,000. While they have it apart the water pump might be a good service as well.
With a warranty you have to deal with a deductible, and the fine print. Also, some shops just flat refuse to do warranty work (my Indy) and hassle for claims. They have plenty of business otherwise.
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Joined: May 2008
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OK...so after some time on my back trying to read my engine code, I have learned two things.
First...the engine code is not easy to read. I couldn't make it out with a flashlight as the indentations had no contrast vs. the surface of the plate they were stamped into. After a little trial and error, I was able to get them to show up by scratching a #2 pencil accross the surface then using my fingers to wipe away the pencil from the surface. The pencil marks remain in the indents and gives some contrast.
Second...engine serial is M97/01 685085XX (didn't want to give full digits) so it has the smaller bearing design. That puts me back to square one. 46K miles on a '05 with the smaller bearing, driven fairly regularly, no warranty, waiting for clutch to fail so I can upgrade the IMS part. The silver lining is I only need to drop the tranny to change out the IMS...bad part is pretty obvious. I am running a risk here.
Anyone have a good feel for where these clutches go out? I am doing mostly city, probably not too easy on the clutch. If I remmember, I think my 993 started slipping at like 50ish...but 997 has a bunch more power.
First...the engine code is not easy to read. I couldn't make it out with a flashlight as the indentations had no contrast vs. the surface of the plate they were stamped into. After a little trial and error, I was able to get them to show up by scratching a #2 pencil accross the surface then using my fingers to wipe away the pencil from the surface. The pencil marks remain in the indents and gives some contrast.
Second...engine serial is M97/01 685085XX (didn't want to give full digits) so it has the smaller bearing design. That puts me back to square one. 46K miles on a '05 with the smaller bearing, driven fairly regularly, no warranty, waiting for clutch to fail so I can upgrade the IMS part. The silver lining is I only need to drop the tranny to change out the IMS...bad part is pretty obvious. I am running a risk here.
Anyone have a good feel for where these clutches go out? I am doing mostly city, probably not too easy on the clutch. If I remmember, I think my 993 started slipping at like 50ish...but 997 has a bunch more power.
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 35
From: Montreal, Canada
Rep Power: 15
[quote=BED997;3710118]
First check which IMS bearing is in your car, if you have the smaller one, you could do an upgrade. If it is the larger one, an upgrade will require an engine tear down to get to the IMSB. You will have to send the whole IMS bearing and shaft to Flat6innovation to do a retrofit. So far the larger IMS has held up well and no IMS failure that I'm aware.
Note the water pump is located at the rear of the engine, no need to drop the tanny.
Jophiel...I don't see you as biased...more so as "well informed".
I guess I have three options:
1) Change out the clutch and upgrade IMS to get some peace of mind (maybe 6K?)
997 clutch parts at Suncoast are about $600, bearing is about $600 from LN, say 12 hours of labor. You should be able to get all the work done for $2,500 or a little more. It should be less than $3,000. While they have it apart the water pump might be a good service as well.
With a warranty you have to deal with a deductible, and the fine print. Also, some shops just flat refuse to do warranty work (my Indy) and hassle for claims. They have plenty of business otherwise.
I guess I have three options:
1) Change out the clutch and upgrade IMS to get some peace of mind (maybe 6K?)
997 clutch parts at Suncoast are about $600, bearing is about $600 from LN, say 12 hours of labor. You should be able to get all the work done for $2,500 or a little more. It should be less than $3,000. While they have it apart the water pump might be a good service as well.
With a warranty you have to deal with a deductible, and the fine print. Also, some shops just flat refuse to do warranty work (my Indy) and hassle for claims. They have plenty of business otherwise.
Note the water pump is located at the rear of the engine, no need to drop the tanny.
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 35
From: Montreal, Canada
Rep Power: 15
Why not just install the Guardian now? From what I understand it is inexpensive. You get the piece if mind, defer the clutch job, and you get to keep (or sell) the Guardian after the retrofit.
quote from the site:
"At just $398.95 (MSRP), the IMS Guardian™ is inexpensive peace of mind. If the IMS Guardian™ alerts, shut down the engine immediately to prevent further damage and schedule a $995 (MSRP)IMS RetroFit to replace the compromised IMS bearing and save your engine. Or take your chances with a potential engine replacement cost of$15,000 - $30,000 or more just to keep your car on the road."
quote from the site:
"At just $398.95 (MSRP), the IMS Guardian™ is inexpensive peace of mind. If the IMS Guardian™ alerts, shut down the engine immediately to prevent further damage and schedule a $995 (MSRP)IMS RetroFit to replace the compromised IMS bearing and save your engine. Or take your chances with a potential engine replacement cost of$15,000 - $30,000 or more just to keep your car on the road."
The main goal for the IMS Guardian is to detect ferrous metal in the engine oil. But as we all know there are many moving parts in our engine that will also produce ferrous metal through wear. Therefore this might trigger a false IMSB failure. So we drop the tranny to check. If the metal happens to be from the IMSB, then I bet there are metals everywhere in the engine especially large pieces stuck in the little oil passages. This will require a complete tear down to do the cleaning.
Probably cheaper with a rebuilt one at this stage.
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 35
From: Montreal, Canada
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Holden,
For someone with very few posts, you are great! Thanks for the info.
My first task this morning was to lift the car and check my serial number. As you said, so far there are no reported 'bigger bearing issues', so for now for us with bigger bearings, we can have a peace of mind. I guess in this case, "size does matter!"
Again, THANK YOU!!!!
And for those who are planning on checking their serial number, I also did encounter difficulty reading the serial number. What helped was for me to degrease/clean the tab, used a mild sandpaper to remove surface crap, degrese again, and voila....it is readable!
For someone with very few posts, you are great! Thanks for the info.
My first task this morning was to lift the car and check my serial number. As you said, so far there are no reported 'bigger bearing issues', so for now for us with bigger bearings, we can have a peace of mind. I guess in this case, "size does matter!"
Again, THANK YOU!!!!
And for those who are planning on checking their serial number, I also did encounter difficulty reading the serial number. What helped was for me to degrease/clean the tab, used a mild sandpaper to remove surface crap, degrese again, and voila....it is readable!
yes, in this case!
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 35
From: Montreal, Canada
Rep Power: 15
Our clutches are prone to premature failure of the pressure plate. Of all the failed clutches I've read about most if not all have been a failed pressure plate. Mine went at 37K. When I had it replaced I requested the IMS bearing also be changed but found out my car is a late '05 and has the upgraded bearing.
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 51
From: USA
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Right, on the water pump you can do it anytime, but the car is at the age where it might be prudent to inquire on a service. There was an article in Excellence magazine a couple months ago about servicing the water pump at about 5 years or 50-60K miles.
Just Purchased a 2006 997 C2 with 24K, I checked and the Engine number and has the larger IMS bearing. Any recommendations to check at this mileage? The Colombian Importer hates gray market cars as mine so its always important to have good info and ideas.