I like the conversation. So as long as you post. I will read. Those that don't like it, can easily opt out, no?

Mercedes has some epic motors at the moment. The hand built 6.3 in the SLS is epic and Aston friendly, for sure.

The bigger challenge is not the present , it's the future. The days of big displacement v12's are coming to a close. For everyone (Lambo and Ferrari will have one for the next while). But it's really an old solution (though glorious), definitely not a solution for a range of cars.

The future is likely:
Very light and naturally aspirated (Heavy tech required in this day and age)
Very light and forced inducted small displacement.
Some version of the above with a KERs unit.

None of this Aston can do itself.

But, perhaps if Aston partnered with Toyota to do MORE than a motor. If they produced an Aston for the next evolution, one with significant advances, ones that allowed the Adton ideals to move into the next phase of automobile evolution, maybe then we might actually welcome it???


What would that car be? What tech? What character? What would have to change? Who would it surprise the most??

Could the next Vantage be that car??

 

It's going to be tough, as big displacement engines and AM go hand in hand, at least in recent memory, don't they? When I imagine an Aston with a turbocharged four or six cylinder, it's like imagining a Corvette or a Mustang without a V8... it doesn't really work for me.

 

Yeah, I know what you mean. I bought my manual V12 because i thought it was the last of the buffalo. It's going to be harder for the Vantage at least to keep that up (if they want volume). Think five or ten years from now.

I think the new Jag C-X75 has a 1.6 liter 4 cylinder Cosworth motor. In 20 years that is going to be a revolutionary idea. The 918 is going to be a 4.7 liter V8 though. So V8's are likely safe.

Small displacement V8??? Would any induction be okay?

Is it okay for a vantage?

 

V8 is good; pays homage to the past and is suitably muscular. V12 is great; an aristocratic cylinder count as befits a marque of this sort. Even i6 might be OK, given the 60's heritage, but I don't think you'll see too many i6's in the future.

As for FI, Aston has a glorious history of supercharging. Who can forget the big bruiser V600 from the 90's? Turbos, meh, something too techy about these, IMO.

 

I think one of the things that has to be kept in mind with any choice of powerplant, is the noise it makes.

And this may ultimately be the limiting factor in the choice of engines and/or engine suppliers.

Case in point....when we were moving back to Canada from France, I gave some strong consideration to a C63, largely due to the soul (and sound!) of that engine. Personally I'm not the biggest MB fan, and the C63 isn't the sexiest car on the road (especially when it seems like there are millions of C-Class MB in Toronto...)....but that engine....yes, that engine has soul. I could honestly see that engine, or a derivative thereof, in an Aston Martin without too many complaints.

On the flipside, the engine in the LFA (or Nissan GT-R, for that matter) is a technological masterpiece....but as has been pointed out....doesn't stir the soul the same way. If I had $350,000 to spend on a supercar, I'm not sure the LFA would even show up on my radar.

Heck, I was looking at the Lotus Evora S (after having walked into the Lotus store in Piccadily Square in London on a weekend...) before settling back on a V8 Vantage. And while the Evora S seemed like a great compromise; good looking, lightweight, reasonably practical, well equipped and ultimately reliable (with a supercharged Toyota powerplant in it), it also didn't stir anything in me to desire it. The Evora S is the kind of car that I could justify on a practical basis.....it's a car I could learn to live with. Good on the street, great on the track....even reasonable fuel economy. The Aston Martin however, is a car I simply cannot live without.

There was a great episode of Top Gear (Season 15, Episode 3) in which they test a Maserati Quattroporte, an Aston Martin Rapide, and a Porsche Panamera to see which executive saloon was the best. And the Maserati seemed to be the worst in terms of logical design and performance amongst other things, but it was the car they chose in the end. We don't always choose the car that is the fastest around the track or the most dead-nuts reliable (hopefully at least they are somewhat reliable though!). We choose the car that makes us happiest when we walk up to it each day.....something that makes you smile when you walk up to it....smile when you step out of it....and most of all, smile when you push the Start button or twist the key.

All of this aside, I wonder what would happen if Toyota simply bought Aston Martin? Aston Martin being owned by Ford somehow seems less offensive than Aston Martin being a part of Toyota Group.



Patrick

 

This paragraph completely negated any credibility with me.

So power and sound within a certain RPM range is what you consider soul...?

Interesting.

It's called large displacement, and has been around for a while. You're not the only one to say large engines have soul. Almost every owner of a 'Vette, or pony car from the '60's would agree with you.

 

Different strokes for different folks then I guess. And honestly, I've always loved the sound of a big-block V8, so yes, old Vettes, 60's pony cars, and even Nascar engines stir the soul. A big block V8, idling, with a really lumpy cam profile....hey, just because it works for me doesn't mean it has to work for you.

Blonde, brunette, redhead. Everyone has a preference.

Just because an engine has soul however, doesn't mean the car does. The C63 is just such an example. Same engine (basically) in the C63 as the SLS....which car is more appealing though? The C63 is fairly pedestrian, and as a car, it doesn't have soul to me (despite loving the sound and punch of the engine). The SLS, on the other hand, is a beautiful car. I've never driven one, much less owned one, so I can't comment on how 'soulful' the car itself may be.

Let's look at it from the opposite side. The Audi R8 5.2 shares an engine with the Lamborghini Gallardo. The Audi R8 is incredibly, technically, competent but as a car it doesn't have soul (in my personal experience). A Lamborghini Gallardo, on the other hand, does, despite it's many quirks and inconsistencies.

So an engine by itself doesn't provide "soul" to a car (despite the engine providing the heartbeat).

I also look at it the opposite way. An OHV, big-block V8 wouldn't suit an Aston Martin either. But, a lot of people said that the 993 was the last of the real 911's and would lead to the end of Porsche with the changeover to water-cooled engines. So an Aston Martin with a Toyota engine probably wouldn't mean the death of the brand either (and let's face it....Aston Martin has done enough on their own to attempt to kill the brand in the past).

But hey, apparently my credibility isn't any good.




Patrick

 

I think a small displacement V8 with twin turbos is the way to go! If I were designing a car this would be it's pewerplant...preferably a flat crack small displacement design, to bolster a stellar rev counter!

 

LOL Sunir, pewerplant (presumably no emissions control)? Flat crack (I'm not even touching that one)?

Seriously, flat plane crank V8's don't have the right sound for AM. Buzzy, droning, sort of 4 cylinderish. Sure, they can shriek nicely at the top end, like a Ferrari, but IMO they just don't sound as nice (or as Aston) as a rumbling, gargling, plain old V8. And the trouble with turbos is that they tend to muffle things, and just don't deliver the throttle response.

 

Lol powerplant ! haha

Yeah maybe not for aston but I just love the flat crank high revving small displacement v8 engines! I love the sound of Ferraris most over any car, Aston is a close second for me but that high pitch sound is music to my ears, and well turbos, I LOVE them! When that boost comes in it's game over and there are def ways to work out lag, especially in a two stage turbo setup, a smaller intiatial turbo and then a larger secondary unit.

 

Muffling - this is EASILY tunable with a set of OEM baffles. If they want it loud, allow for more flow. Simple. In fact, it is probably easier to make a turbo car louder than it is to make an N/A quieter.

And I'd agree that turbos don't deliver throttle response, but about 10 years ago. Technology has improved this quite a bit, where turbo response is quite linear (maybe even more so than a high-torque V8, where the V8 feels like an on/off switch). But for those car manufacturers that prefer low-end torque, such as in the current V12, may I suggest the decades-old roots style supercharger. This is not new technology and accounts for both aspects of your dilemma. It appears there is another underlying issue that you may have.

 

MP4-12C?

It's not impossible to build a more engine with "character" it just takes money and time neither of which AM have much control of!
AM are not a larger volume producer, Porsche build more 911s per year than the total output of Gaydon to date

I still think AM could add "character" to the LFA V10 and gain ground on the tech front

 

Exactly.

Given enough time and effort, they could probably give "character" or "features" to a damn 4cyl Civic engine.

Nobody here has ever suggested that a simple transplant would take place (even if from Toyota OR Mercedes). It all goes back to metal components. Does it matter which name is stamped on them?

 

You got it Mikey! It's on my shortlist for next car...I love it. It's a 3 way tie between it, Ferrari 430 scud/F458, or some sort of lambo... I want something with that high pitched sound and that sort of rev screaming banchee like high pithed whaling acceleration! See there we go my desciption was based one metaphores tied to emotion and feeling...there you go an example of automotive "soul" ..it does exist in all it's glory right there!!!

 

Jasper I have so many underlying issues, which one could you possibly be referring to?

Yes, there are modern turbocharged V8's that sound quite good, like the current AMG's. And I have fond memories of my old RS6. Always liked evo's description that it sounded like "a close encounter with some helicopter blades".

Drove a new M5 the other day. Impressive throttle response and linearity for a turbocharged car, but you could still tell it was turbocharged. And what a dull exhaust note!

Can't say I have ever been disappointed with low end torque of most turbos - in fact, this is one of their defining characteristics. The wallop of torque from the latest twin turbo BMW V8's is quite impressive, as was the hit from the RS6.