AM Statement About V8 Builds
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Aston Martin is not Aston Martin - its Aston Martin 'Lagonda'. David Brown in 1947 purchased Lagonda because he needed the engine developed by W.O. Bentley which Lagonda had the rights to. So that was the first time an Aston Martin used another's engine design which remained a long time.... also ditto the last remark - about 99% of the reason I bought the Vantage was it's look. I'd upgrade to new Vantage with a better engine by AMG, and Magnetic shocks. I actually like the SportShift because it's kinda raw and involving to drive it right... like a 6 speed without the heavy clutch to contend with.
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I agree completely with the last two comments by Prefurbia and mjk1. I bought my Vantage for the history, looks, one particularly good test drive (salesman driving . . . scared the bejezus out of me . . . it was fun!), and because it's still fairly rare (unlike the sea of 911s and M3s out here).
I'd be very, very happy with what Prefurbia described. Better engine and selectable shocks. I also want a major upgrade in cabin tech, even something as simple as having side view mirrors that dim would be nice (I really hate getting blinded by those mirrors at night).
Would love for AM to continue to make gorgeous cars, with lovely interiors, and borrow/tune really good technology from AMG (would have also loved to see a BMW M partnership). I have zero issues with that . . . except in the case of the Cygnet, which took that concept a little too far.
I'd be very, very happy with what Prefurbia described. Better engine and selectable shocks. I also want a major upgrade in cabin tech, even something as simple as having side view mirrors that dim would be nice (I really hate getting blinded by those mirrors at night).
Would love for AM to continue to make gorgeous cars, with lovely interiors, and borrow/tune really good technology from AMG (would have also loved to see a BMW M partnership). I have zero issues with that . . . except in the case of the Cygnet, which took that concept a little too far.
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Ugh.
The notion that the only options are either 1) using "retuned" AMG engines (as opposed to AMG "bespoke-to-Aston" engines) dropped into Astons or 2) going out of business is ABSURD! The retuned engine path is merely cheaper -- that is the only advantage. Working with AMG to develop bespoke Aston engines is more expensive, but vastly less costly than developing an engine from scratch -- and should be entirely viable.
I have no issue with Aston and AMG designing bespoke engines for Aston Martin. None. That would be great. If, on the other hand, they basically put retuned AMG engine in Astons, I will have zero interest in such a car. None.
Why have some concluded that Aston can't use "current tech" transmissions because they don't have a partner. They buy the manual and SS 'boxes from Graziano. They buy the auto 'box from ZF (which also makes the 8-spd). They don't need M-B to have access to DSG or 8-spd autos.
Aston Martin are, IMO, the best looking cars on sale today. I would not have bought mine if looks were the thing Aston is best at. That's like being with a girl only because she looks great (which has its appeal, but it's not good enough). I bought my Aston for so many more reasons. Aston has a long history of making great engines -- they're very good at it. Look at the Tadek Marek straight-6 and V8 engines. The current V12 is wonderful and very highly regarded. The current V8 is a fantastic engine and is proving to be extremely reliable and durable. Both engines have built (and continue to build) a very impressive racing record. In V8VS form, the V8 makes 15 more hp than the much larger 5.5L AMG V8 (nat-asp), which makes 37 ft-lbs more. To say that Aston is really great at looks -- that aesthetics is the strength -- completely fails to recognize Aston's many strengths and grossly underestimates the company.
Aston needs a partnership -- I've never suggested otherwise. But that partnership needs to treat Aston with the respect that it deserves, and that means don't bastardize it with a "retuned" version of another's engine. No matter how good that engine may be, it doesn't belong in an Aston Martin.
The notion that the only options are either 1) using "retuned" AMG engines (as opposed to AMG "bespoke-to-Aston" engines) dropped into Astons or 2) going out of business is ABSURD! The retuned engine path is merely cheaper -- that is the only advantage. Working with AMG to develop bespoke Aston engines is more expensive, but vastly less costly than developing an engine from scratch -- and should be entirely viable.
I have no issue with Aston and AMG designing bespoke engines for Aston Martin. None. That would be great. If, on the other hand, they basically put retuned AMG engine in Astons, I will have zero interest in such a car. None.
Why have some concluded that Aston can't use "current tech" transmissions because they don't have a partner. They buy the manual and SS 'boxes from Graziano. They buy the auto 'box from ZF (which also makes the 8-spd). They don't need M-B to have access to DSG or 8-spd autos.
Aston Martin are, IMO, the best looking cars on sale today. I would not have bought mine if looks were the thing Aston is best at. That's like being with a girl only because she looks great (which has its appeal, but it's not good enough). I bought my Aston for so many more reasons. Aston has a long history of making great engines -- they're very good at it. Look at the Tadek Marek straight-6 and V8 engines. The current V12 is wonderful and very highly regarded. The current V8 is a fantastic engine and is proving to be extremely reliable and durable. Both engines have built (and continue to build) a very impressive racing record. In V8VS form, the V8 makes 15 more hp than the much larger 5.5L AMG V8 (nat-asp), which makes 37 ft-lbs more. To say that Aston is really great at looks -- that aesthetics is the strength -- completely fails to recognize Aston's many strengths and grossly underestimates the company.
Aston needs a partnership -- I've never suggested otherwise. But that partnership needs to treat Aston with the respect that it deserves, and that means don't bastardize it with a "retuned" version of another's engine. No matter how good that engine may be, it doesn't belong in an Aston Martin.
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obviously arguing on the internet is just a big waste of our time, so lemme just respond once to your points, and i won't reply after this.
2) Current Aston engines aren't "***box Ford engines." Perhaps you should learn something about their design and development rather than repeating the uninformed-but-frequently-repeated notion that they're simply Ford engines.
ummm, yes they are (the v12 is two duratec v6's mated together), as you very well know since you basically contradict yourself in your edited point at the very bottom of your post. no direct injection, dry sump, forced induction, etc, etc. they just can't compete with their rivals. that's why they needed to sign a technological partnership with another mfgr (if not with daimler/amg, they would've signed with another partner). you think the billionaires at invest industrial and investment dar sit around all day long thinking about how they can give up 5% equity on top of paying more for their new engines if the fomoco slugs are so great?
3) Ford engines, even when they're "merely" Ford engines, aren't ****box engines. Have you no knowledge of the millions of Ford engines powering taxis (among other things) that routinely cover a reliable half-million plus miles?
huh, what are you even trying to say? good for you if you want to have a taxi engine in your six figure car. also, notice that i did say that now ford has better engines than am.
4) If everything were perfect, and identical, it would be quite boring. So yes, differences matter, and variety makes things interesting. It's why some people prefer Astons, some prefer Ferraris, some prefer Porsches...
so you think making some bull**** part changes on your am-badged amg engine is going to somehow magically make it super special and unique? daimler is not going to make major engineering changes to the engines they sell to aston so what difference does it make if they change a few parts for aston, vs say just slapping on some am valve covers on the s65 slug and dropping it in wholesale. it's not like there's some super secret technology locked away in a vault in stuttgart or affalterbach that daimler is going to license to am only, but wouldn't let themselves use.
5) You mean Bosch builds electronic stuff? Aston hasn't manufactured its own gearbox since the David Brown 4-speed? No way!!!
you know this, yet you obsess about one of thousands of parts on the car. why don't cry about the zf trans or the brakes or the radiator or whatever not being bespoke enough for you.
6) By your reasoning, if an AMG car is the state of the art, then what we should all really want is an AMG wearing Aston Martin badges. Silly me! I didn't realize how awesome that would be
you do realize that we've been driving am badged fords since the 80s or so, right?
Edited to add: BTW, if you pay attention to what I've written in my posts, you'll see that I have never suggested that Aston should just continue with the current engines in their current form, but rather that they need to catch up from a tech standpoint. It's how they do it that matters, and if they drop another firm's engines into Astons, it would be a crying shame.
obviously you are more on board with the status quo of a ford-powered am (since you actually bought one), vs an amg-powered am. am is catching up from a tech standpoint with this agreement, but you're upset because the the new engines won't have unique part numbers for some components? you don't have a specific complaint about a specific technology, or a particular specification, or a performance aspect of the amg slugs. you're literally complaining that the engines won't have enough different **** slapped on, because as we all know all engines must have at least 37 pieces of flair to be considered bespoke and cool.
2) Current Aston engines aren't "***box Ford engines." Perhaps you should learn something about their design and development rather than repeating the uninformed-but-frequently-repeated notion that they're simply Ford engines.
ummm, yes they are (the v12 is two duratec v6's mated together), as you very well know since you basically contradict yourself in your edited point at the very bottom of your post. no direct injection, dry sump, forced induction, etc, etc. they just can't compete with their rivals. that's why they needed to sign a technological partnership with another mfgr (if not with daimler/amg, they would've signed with another partner). you think the billionaires at invest industrial and investment dar sit around all day long thinking about how they can give up 5% equity on top of paying more for their new engines if the fomoco slugs are so great?
3) Ford engines, even when they're "merely" Ford engines, aren't ****box engines. Have you no knowledge of the millions of Ford engines powering taxis (among other things) that routinely cover a reliable half-million plus miles?
huh, what are you even trying to say? good for you if you want to have a taxi engine in your six figure car. also, notice that i did say that now ford has better engines than am.
4) If everything were perfect, and identical, it would be quite boring. So yes, differences matter, and variety makes things interesting. It's why some people prefer Astons, some prefer Ferraris, some prefer Porsches...
so you think making some bull**** part changes on your am-badged amg engine is going to somehow magically make it super special and unique? daimler is not going to make major engineering changes to the engines they sell to aston so what difference does it make if they change a few parts for aston, vs say just slapping on some am valve covers on the s65 slug and dropping it in wholesale. it's not like there's some super secret technology locked away in a vault in stuttgart or affalterbach that daimler is going to license to am only, but wouldn't let themselves use.
5) You mean Bosch builds electronic stuff? Aston hasn't manufactured its own gearbox since the David Brown 4-speed? No way!!!
you know this, yet you obsess about one of thousands of parts on the car. why don't cry about the zf trans or the brakes or the radiator or whatever not being bespoke enough for you.
6) By your reasoning, if an AMG car is the state of the art, then what we should all really want is an AMG wearing Aston Martin badges. Silly me! I didn't realize how awesome that would be
you do realize that we've been driving am badged fords since the 80s or so, right?
Edited to add: BTW, if you pay attention to what I've written in my posts, you'll see that I have never suggested that Aston should just continue with the current engines in their current form, but rather that they need to catch up from a tech standpoint. It's how they do it that matters, and if they drop another firm's engines into Astons, it would be a crying shame.
obviously you are more on board with the status quo of a ford-powered am (since you actually bought one), vs an amg-powered am. am is catching up from a tech standpoint with this agreement, but you're upset because the the new engines won't have unique part numbers for some components? you don't have a specific complaint about a specific technology, or a particular specification, or a performance aspect of the amg slugs. you're literally complaining that the engines won't have enough different **** slapped on, because as we all know all engines must have at least 37 pieces of flair to be considered bespoke and cool.
Last edited by telum01; Jan 7, 2014 at 07:20 AM.
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sorry, one more reply...
ok, humor us. what specifically in your opinion should aston ask amg to change that is currently not up to snuff in their engines.
that was a rhetorical question, because you're obviously not well versed in engineering nor manufacturing. first of all, am doesn't even do their own engineering for their ford engines; it's contracted to cosworth and prodrive. there is literally no person at aston that can even go to the daimler offices and work "hand-in-hand" with their engineering team to develop your super high-tech bespoke engine.
secondly, a mass produced engine is not like a suit that you can just have custom made to your exact liking. once an engine is under production, it's gone through years of r&d and engineering, not to mention the tooling, molds, mfg facility upgrades, etc. you think aston can go in and tell amg, "oh we've re-engineered your head and changed the port and valve angle, the int and exh valve sizes, the port radii, the water jacket design, etc. we want you cast this exact head only for us and retool your factory accordingly. this is a vastly improved head that somehow you missed with your billions in r&d".
anything they change is going to be meaningless and just for the sake of change. ok, you want them to shave a few grams from each rod, or overbore the cylinders a couple thou, maybe do a quick cleanup vj, or drop in some racier cams? tune in a couple extra pounds of boost on an untouched 65 motor and you make a ton more power than dinking and dunking your bespoke changes. or maybe you want a bigger ic or dp's? why not just go to your local speed shop and have those fabled up? or maybe you want amg to install some cutting edge turbos with variable geometry, electric spool-up, with super lightweight materials that they've been researching for the past decade. mercedes isn't worthy of these turbos; amg could only bestow these top secret turbos to a brand with the prestige and pedigree of an aston martin. that would be super awesome right?
Ugh.
The notion that the only options are either 1) using "retuned" AMG engines (as opposed to AMG "bespoke-to-Aston" engines) dropped into Astons or 2) going out of business is ABSURD! The retuned engine path is merely cheaper -- that is the only advantage. Working with AMG to develop bespoke Aston engines is more expensive, but vastly less costly than developing an engine from scratch -- and should be entirely viable.
The notion that the only options are either 1) using "retuned" AMG engines (as opposed to AMG "bespoke-to-Aston" engines) dropped into Astons or 2) going out of business is ABSURD! The retuned engine path is merely cheaper -- that is the only advantage. Working with AMG to develop bespoke Aston engines is more expensive, but vastly less costly than developing an engine from scratch -- and should be entirely viable.
that was a rhetorical question, because you're obviously not well versed in engineering nor manufacturing. first of all, am doesn't even do their own engineering for their ford engines; it's contracted to cosworth and prodrive. there is literally no person at aston that can even go to the daimler offices and work "hand-in-hand" with their engineering team to develop your super high-tech bespoke engine.
secondly, a mass produced engine is not like a suit that you can just have custom made to your exact liking. once an engine is under production, it's gone through years of r&d and engineering, not to mention the tooling, molds, mfg facility upgrades, etc. you think aston can go in and tell amg, "oh we've re-engineered your head and changed the port and valve angle, the int and exh valve sizes, the port radii, the water jacket design, etc. we want you cast this exact head only for us and retool your factory accordingly. this is a vastly improved head that somehow you missed with your billions in r&d".
anything they change is going to be meaningless and just for the sake of change. ok, you want them to shave a few grams from each rod, or overbore the cylinders a couple thou, maybe do a quick cleanup vj, or drop in some racier cams? tune in a couple extra pounds of boost on an untouched 65 motor and you make a ton more power than dinking and dunking your bespoke changes. or maybe you want a bigger ic or dp's? why not just go to your local speed shop and have those fabled up? or maybe you want amg to install some cutting edge turbos with variable geometry, electric spool-up, with super lightweight materials that they've been researching for the past decade. mercedes isn't worthy of these turbos; amg could only bestow these top secret turbos to a brand with the prestige and pedigree of an aston martin. that would be super awesome right?
Last edited by telum01; Jan 7, 2014 at 07:21 AM.
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I'm a fan of the AMG move personally but don't feel as strongly as you do. That being said, your tone is condescending, confrontational, and unpleasant.
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I've tried to be clear about my concerns, but I'll try again. If AMG and Aston develop bespoke engines for Aston Martin, with "bespoke" meaning the same thing as it does with the current V8 -- starting with the Jaguar engine but using unique-to-Aston bespoke block, crank, rods, pistons, heads, cams, valves, etc. -- then it should be fantastic.
Though in the long run they may be shooting themselves in the foot, the local dealer survives on service cash influx, not new car sales. The ford motor as least being a little bespoke had people running to the dealer along with the sportshift box and its special software. Might get people moving to independent service in the long run which will hurt as well.
Its still a Aston, I just do not see how they are going to move beyond the current styling and keep people vested in the brand. They kind of backed themselves into a corner.
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Very interesting thread for sure but a little heated. Where there is much love passion is the rule.
I am one of the Bentley Conti owners that have the "shared" parts and I see why it might bother some people to have such a high end car subcontracting major components. I do take offense if anyone tells me a I have a fancy VW but over all I like my car very much. Believe me over on the Bentley forum there is a wide gulf of opinions about the new V8, me not being such a great fan but accepting that some are, so be it.
I am seeing a similar concern on the Harley Davidson forums when large changes are being talked about. Some traditionalist are wary of change and they deserve to have their concerns. I would not argue with Speedraser and I do understand him, I think.? If we have a beloved item and large changes are proposed concern would be normal.
On another forum much concerned has been raised claiming that the Cuban cigar has become homogenized to the point that all the brands taste the same. Could the same thing be happening to automobiles?
I lust for an AM and would pick one up as my second car if the budget allowed so I just gaze at your cars and drool. Make no mistake I am a big fan of Aston Martin. Now to the rub of the issue for me. The iconic tradition that is AM is both the asset and the liability. AM is not carried about by even wind of fashion and is so lovely and stately that much change would ruin them for me. That same resistance to move that makes them so great is at the same time letting technology to slip by. IMHO, disagreement fully allowed
If done with respect to the brand the cooperation with AMG could be a real boost but please not at the cost of traditional suicide.
I am one of the Bentley Conti owners that have the "shared" parts and I see why it might bother some people to have such a high end car subcontracting major components. I do take offense if anyone tells me a I have a fancy VW but over all I like my car very much. Believe me over on the Bentley forum there is a wide gulf of opinions about the new V8, me not being such a great fan but accepting that some are, so be it.
I am seeing a similar concern on the Harley Davidson forums when large changes are being talked about. Some traditionalist are wary of change and they deserve to have their concerns. I would not argue with Speedraser and I do understand him, I think.? If we have a beloved item and large changes are proposed concern would be normal.
On another forum much concerned has been raised claiming that the Cuban cigar has become homogenized to the point that all the brands taste the same. Could the same thing be happening to automobiles?
I lust for an AM and would pick one up as my second car if the budget allowed so I just gaze at your cars and drool. Make no mistake I am a big fan of Aston Martin. Now to the rub of the issue for me. The iconic tradition that is AM is both the asset and the liability. AM is not carried about by even wind of fashion and is so lovely and stately that much change would ruin them for me. That same resistance to move that makes them so great is at the same time letting technology to slip by. IMHO, disagreement fully allowed
If done with respect to the brand the cooperation with AMG could be a real boost but please not at the cost of traditional suicide.
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this may not be relevant? however I will table with cation that i have been married to the same woman for 20 years come February 2014, every 24 months I have replaced her mercedes benz with a new model, keeping her safe and making sure that during my time away from home her car troubles are not a real bother - thinking new car wont break. That being said I now want to upgrade her again to the newer model Merc say a 500 S series... my god what an ugly range of cars no merc tradition in the design!~!!we have looked at the range and the E Class is no better (also dont want to downgrade the lass) we know society does judge husbands by the things we give our ladies. So it seems the merc engineers have commissioned a very diffrent bunch of guys to design thier cars.,,,, 16 months ago I traded my Merc and was looking at a SL63 to replace my then 2 year old SL 500, suffice to say the thing has become so ugly I could just not have it, so I was seduced by the Aston Martin vantage.
Not saying to much cos im a newbie on the show but just to say Merc have lost two sales from a very middle class household due to radical change.
Im just saying and in case you are interested I have ordered a new RR evogue for her (also saved myself some cash) that I will use to shod some new rubber on the best looking car in my hood The Vantage
what I liked about the Vantage is its shape and that it seems timeless and that over the years the cosmetic changes have been suttle ... not something we can say about Merc
lets just hope AM dont kokitup
Not saying to much cos im a newbie on the show but just to say Merc have lost two sales from a very middle class household due to radical change.
Im just saying and in case you are interested I have ordered a new RR evogue for her (also saved myself some cash) that I will use to shod some new rubber on the best looking car in my hood The Vantage
what I liked about the Vantage is its shape and that it seems timeless and that over the years the cosmetic changes have been suttle ... not something we can say about Merclets just hope AM dont kokitup
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Perhaps YOU should leave the Aston forum since you don't seem to give a r*** *** what becomes of their iconic automobiles if they end up with a drop-in AMG motor.
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Im not sure we should tell forum members to leave or give them stick for having an opinion? all are entitled to opinions and its good food for thought to hear arguments for both sides of the field, we may lose a good member who could at some point add huge value on other threads like when if we need technical help, as an example
Im a AM owner and will most likely die with the brand in my garage I just like them but Im not an Engineer so Im happy to let guys who make a living from making things work get on with it, to me a car is an emotive thing it must move me, I often go down to my humble garage and take in the toys I have earned over the last few years, an AMG engine is not half bad, then again nor is the current engine in my vantage _ I bought the brand cos the Iconic shape appeals to me, only now as an owner am I reading and learning the heritage.
Often Im ridiculed by guys in the gym who go on to tell me thier R8 or 430 is faster or his m3 is better who cares, I arrive with an Aston and the fact that these tossers even need to approach me to tell me this, tells me they no when an Aston has arrived! that is the message of AM not sure if changing the engine could change this?
Im a AM owner and will most likely die with the brand in my garage I just like them but Im not an Engineer so Im happy to let guys who make a living from making things work get on with it, to me a car is an emotive thing it must move me, I often go down to my humble garage and take in the toys I have earned over the last few years, an AMG engine is not half bad, then again nor is the current engine in my vantage _ I bought the brand cos the Iconic shape appeals to me, only now as an owner am I reading and learning the heritage.
Often Im ridiculed by guys in the gym who go on to tell me thier R8 or 430 is faster or his m3 is better who cares, I arrive with an Aston and the fact that these tossers even need to approach me to tell me this, tells me they no when an Aston has arrived! that is the message of AM not sure if changing the engine could change this?
