- Lightweight Forgestar CF10s + Michelin Pilot Super Sports setup officially instal
#1
04-04-2014, 07:45 PM
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- Lightweight Forgestar CF10s + Michelin Pilot Super Sports setup officially instal
All,
I finally had a chance to install the new wheels and tires after I sourced all the right parts and hardware. There were a few bumps and many lessons learned along the way. I have assembled a mountain of data on the entire setup compared to stock in order to best summarize the benefits of such a setup (view attachment below).
Background:
The primary goal was to drastically improve the aesthetics of the car by increasing the wheel offset, wheel width, tire tread width, and track width all without adding weight (and if possible reducing weight in the process). I settled on the Forgestar CF10s because they are the lightest of all Forgestar wheels per given width and they also suit the Aston's character the best IMO. I wanted a very strong forged custom offset wheel without the insane custom forged price. For that reason Forgestar was the best compromise of both worlds. You still get the flow form forged barrels and custom offset without the insane $5k+ price tag.
For Tires, I wanted to try something different. The Stock tires are utter garbage and I couldn't tolerate them anymore. Everyone has been raving about the Michelin Pilot Super Sports so I figured I would give them a try. Based on the reviews I have been hearing they ride the softest of the max performance tires, and they also weigh the least to help further achieve my goal is keeping weight down as much as humanly possible. This decision would in some ways come back to bite me for unforeseen reasons... but more on that later.
Forgestar CF10 setup:
Front = 19"x9" @ 38mm offset
Rear = 19"x11" @ 55mm offset
Michelin Pilot Sport Setup:
Front = 255/35/19
Rear = 305/30/19
Installation:
Pretty straight forward... IF I had received the right bolts. I ordered black 14x2.0 thread 2" long bolts, but got 14x1.5 instead. Luckily a local wheel shop had them in stock but in chrome. At first I wish they had black but perhaps chrome would stand out less. Unfortunately nobody makes 14x2.0 bolts in anything shorter than 2" length, thus causing them to stick out quite a bit in the rears. This last minute hiccup didn't stop the process and managed to get both the wheel & tires on once the correct bolts were sourced nearby.
Weight Comparisons:
Surprisingly, Even though the wheels were a total overall width of 2" wider F&R (4" total) and the tires were 40mm wider in front and 60mm wider in rear (total), the final overall setup STILL ended up being lighter than stock by 7.840 lbs. Using a super accurate digital scale accurate up to the thousandth of a pound, I felt comfortable in the measurements and meticulously documented every weight every step of the way. What was especially shocking was the weight reduction of the rear wheels in particular. The Forgestar 19x11" rears were only 0.4lbs heavier than the 19x9" front ... thus illustrating exactly why having a flow-form forged barrel is so advantageous. There is almost no weight penalty in going significantly wider in the rears. The only real weight penalty comes in the tire, but the PSS rear 305s were only 1.5 lbs heavier than the Bridgestone 275s, WELL worth the tradeoff in massive increase in grip.
HOWEVER, This does not tell the entire story. It is not a fair comparison to compare a bone stock setup to a Forgestar setup when the offsets are so drastically different. In order to show a truly accurate comparison, I also wanted to add a "spacer compensation factor" to show how much the true weight savings would be when you compared a stock set of OEM wheels & tires PLUS spacers to the Forgestar PSS setup. This is the only true way to compare the two to be truly fair. Given how the spacer + longer studs add roughly 1.5lbs per corner you can then adjust for this additional theoretical weight to get a clearer picture of just how much lighter it would be than a "OEM Spacer" setup (for lack of a better term). Once factored in, the weigh savings jumps up to almost 14lbs total. Furthermore, the cost difference between the two once you factor in the additional labor it costs to install studs, you begin to realize it costs almost the same price if not cheaper to just buy this setup.
Track Width:
The drastic increase in track width will also have positive effect in handling, steering response, and overall suspension performance. Essentially, you are quickening your steering ratio although the rack is staying exactly the same. Obviously, the car will also be more stable given its much wider base, not to mention a more aesthetically pleasing look. The Data below illustrates just how drastic of a difference made by the new setup. The "Track Width Center Offset" is referring to the center line of the wheel. This shows how much wider it is from center line to center line. However, this metric does not tell the whole story as the outer edge of the wheels have increase to a much greater degree (a total of 36mm in front and 53mm in rear!). I provided both numbers just for informative sake to illustrate all the different dimensions at work & etc.
Wheels Initial Impressions:
The wheels have transformed the way the car looks without question. More importantly, the track width increase improved steering sharpness and responsiveness to a degree I did not expect. Initially I was planning on swapping out the steering rack with the upgraded unit, but after factoring in the heavy costs with such a conversion I decided to go the wheel route instead and it seems to have satisfied me in this regard. I no longer feel like it is necessary. The wider stance not only looks better but has made the feel car extremely planted, even at higher speeds. The Bolts stick out too much b/c of the rear concave and unfortunately without going to custom lug bolts... this eyesore has no solution as there are virtually NO ford truck spline bolts under 2". Also, Forgestar said their recommended offset was 38mm and 55mm... I said that was simply way too low of an offset and I wanted to go higher, they said it would not clear the brake calipers. I thought they were being paranoid, but after getting the wheels they weren't kidding. Front clearance is about 5mm. Rear clearance is about 3mm lol. IF it weren't for the tires this would have been acceptable, but tires pushed it out even wider. One thing that did impress me was the weight of the wheels though. They are barely a pound heavier than the HRE's and cost literally 1/3rd the price. To me that's a small tradeoff for such great wheels.
Tires Initial Impressions:
This is probably where the bulk of the transformation in ride quality is happening. The Michelin Pilot Super Sports are the SOFTEST tire I have ever driven on (and that list is a long one). You can literally push in the sidewalls effortlessly with your fingers. That's the beauty of an all-Kevlar belting, the key to PSS supple ride and light weight. Most tires use a steel or steel/Kevlar hybrid, but the PSS use pure Kevlar and for that reason the ride quality is unbelievably good. I always thought it was the stock suspension to blame, but it really is the combination of heavy rotating mass and the stock Bridgestones (literally "stones"). If you have not done so already... please discard the stock tires before you make any other suspension changes whatsoever, it will make a drastic difference in itself. The way these tires absorb expansion joints, potholes, and bumps in the road for a 30 profile tire is truly astonishing.
With regards to grip, I am still in the initial 100 miles of the tires and I have not yet worn into the real meat of the tire so it's still not at 100% I can tell, but even already the grip is dramatically improved over the stock tires, I am sure sheer size alone has a big factor in that. Whether or not these will be as grippy as a Direzza Z1/Z2 or RE11 is questionable at this point. Personally, I don't think it will ever get quite that grippy. However, those tires will not be nearly as good of a street tires as these PSS, a tradeoff well worth it considering this thing will never see the track.
Sidewalls is the only Achilles heel of the PSS. I have never seen such an oddly shaped sidewall ever. The outer lip sticks out nearly 5-7mm over past the wheel edge and because of this it has completely thrown off ALL of my calculations. Michelins of past have been notoriously super narrow for their size with thin sidewalls. But these excessive side walls have made the offset look much more aggressive than I wanted. It now looks like a 19x11" @ 48mm offset instead of a 55mm offset. The wheels themselves at 55mm were borderline, but with PSS it has push them out more than anticipated. Perhaps a drop will help the car "Squat" more and minimize this appearance, but had I known this going into it, I may have chosen a different tire. So for this reason, if you plan on running PSS... MAKE SURE to compensate at least an additional 5-7mm minimum in your calculations. The ONE good thing about such a sidewall is you will probably never ever get a curb rash because it provides so much protection for such a low profile tire... again, life is always about compromise.
Price:
The Forgestars were only $1750 shipped included bolts from "DV8 Motoring" and the tires came out to ~1250. So for basically $3000 you can have an amazing wheel & tire setup. Factor in your stock set of wheels & tires is probably worth $800-1000 conservatively and you are looking at net cost of $2000-2200 for the total transformation. Worth every penny in my book.
Summary:
Although the wheels came out slightly wider than expected, you can only really tell from a very narrow angle just off angle and from any other angle they look fantastic. The ride has truly been transformed in ways I never could have imagined. Although I am still waiting for the tires to truly "bite", for now the ride quality, comfort, steering response and handling alone have transformed so much I can definitely tell this is a MUST DO mod for anyone. To increase the performance potential of the car to such a large degree AND still reduce the weight even more is truly the best of both worlds, and in that regard, I could not be happier with the transformation. (I will let the pictures do the rest of the talking...)
(click on png file and zoom in to full size to view data.... its a LOT of data. I guarantee you won't find a more complete set of data anywhere lol)
I finally had a chance to install the new wheels and tires after I sourced all the right parts and hardware. There were a few bumps and many lessons learned along the way. I have assembled a mountain of data on the entire setup compared to stock in order to best summarize the benefits of such a setup (view attachment below).
Background:
The primary goal was to drastically improve the aesthetics of the car by increasing the wheel offset, wheel width, tire tread width, and track width all without adding weight (and if possible reducing weight in the process). I settled on the Forgestar CF10s because they are the lightest of all Forgestar wheels per given width and they also suit the Aston's character the best IMO. I wanted a very strong forged custom offset wheel without the insane custom forged price. For that reason Forgestar was the best compromise of both worlds. You still get the flow form forged barrels and custom offset without the insane $5k+ price tag.
For Tires, I wanted to try something different. The Stock tires are utter garbage and I couldn't tolerate them anymore. Everyone has been raving about the Michelin Pilot Super Sports so I figured I would give them a try. Based on the reviews I have been hearing they ride the softest of the max performance tires, and they also weigh the least to help further achieve my goal is keeping weight down as much as humanly possible. This decision would in some ways come back to bite me for unforeseen reasons... but more on that later.
Forgestar CF10 setup:
Front = 19"x9" @ 38mm offset
Rear = 19"x11" @ 55mm offset
Michelin Pilot Sport Setup:
Front = 255/35/19
Rear = 305/30/19
Installation:
Pretty straight forward... IF I had received the right bolts. I ordered black 14x2.0 thread 2" long bolts, but got 14x1.5 instead. Luckily a local wheel shop had them in stock but in chrome. At first I wish they had black but perhaps chrome would stand out less. Unfortunately nobody makes 14x2.0 bolts in anything shorter than 2" length, thus causing them to stick out quite a bit in the rears. This last minute hiccup didn't stop the process and managed to get both the wheel & tires on once the correct bolts were sourced nearby.
Weight Comparisons:
Surprisingly, Even though the wheels were a total overall width of 2" wider F&R (4" total) and the tires were 40mm wider in front and 60mm wider in rear (total), the final overall setup STILL ended up being lighter than stock by 7.840 lbs. Using a super accurate digital scale accurate up to the thousandth of a pound, I felt comfortable in the measurements and meticulously documented every weight every step of the way. What was especially shocking was the weight reduction of the rear wheels in particular. The Forgestar 19x11" rears were only 0.4lbs heavier than the 19x9" front ... thus illustrating exactly why having a flow-form forged barrel is so advantageous. There is almost no weight penalty in going significantly wider in the rears. The only real weight penalty comes in the tire, but the PSS rear 305s were only 1.5 lbs heavier than the Bridgestone 275s, WELL worth the tradeoff in massive increase in grip.
HOWEVER, This does not tell the entire story. It is not a fair comparison to compare a bone stock setup to a Forgestar setup when the offsets are so drastically different. In order to show a truly accurate comparison, I also wanted to add a "spacer compensation factor" to show how much the true weight savings would be when you compared a stock set of OEM wheels & tires PLUS spacers to the Forgestar PSS setup. This is the only true way to compare the two to be truly fair. Given how the spacer + longer studs add roughly 1.5lbs per corner you can then adjust for this additional theoretical weight to get a clearer picture of just how much lighter it would be than a "OEM Spacer" setup (for lack of a better term). Once factored in, the weigh savings jumps up to almost 14lbs total. Furthermore, the cost difference between the two once you factor in the additional labor it costs to install studs, you begin to realize it costs almost the same price if not cheaper to just buy this setup.
Track Width:
The drastic increase in track width will also have positive effect in handling, steering response, and overall suspension performance. Essentially, you are quickening your steering ratio although the rack is staying exactly the same. Obviously, the car will also be more stable given its much wider base, not to mention a more aesthetically pleasing look. The Data below illustrates just how drastic of a difference made by the new setup. The "Track Width Center Offset" is referring to the center line of the wheel. This shows how much wider it is from center line to center line. However, this metric does not tell the whole story as the outer edge of the wheels have increase to a much greater degree (a total of 36mm in front and 53mm in rear!). I provided both numbers just for informative sake to illustrate all the different dimensions at work & etc.
Wheels Initial Impressions:
The wheels have transformed the way the car looks without question. More importantly, the track width increase improved steering sharpness and responsiveness to a degree I did not expect. Initially I was planning on swapping out the steering rack with the upgraded unit, but after factoring in the heavy costs with such a conversion I decided to go the wheel route instead and it seems to have satisfied me in this regard. I no longer feel like it is necessary. The wider stance not only looks better but has made the feel car extremely planted, even at higher speeds. The Bolts stick out too much b/c of the rear concave and unfortunately without going to custom lug bolts... this eyesore has no solution as there are virtually NO ford truck spline bolts under 2". Also, Forgestar said their recommended offset was 38mm and 55mm... I said that was simply way too low of an offset and I wanted to go higher, they said it would not clear the brake calipers. I thought they were being paranoid, but after getting the wheels they weren't kidding. Front clearance is about 5mm. Rear clearance is about 3mm lol. IF it weren't for the tires this would have been acceptable, but tires pushed it out even wider. One thing that did impress me was the weight of the wheels though. They are barely a pound heavier than the HRE's and cost literally 1/3rd the price. To me that's a small tradeoff for such great wheels.
Tires Initial Impressions:
This is probably where the bulk of the transformation in ride quality is happening. The Michelin Pilot Super Sports are the SOFTEST tire I have ever driven on (and that list is a long one). You can literally push in the sidewalls effortlessly with your fingers. That's the beauty of an all-Kevlar belting, the key to PSS supple ride and light weight. Most tires use a steel or steel/Kevlar hybrid, but the PSS use pure Kevlar and for that reason the ride quality is unbelievably good. I always thought it was the stock suspension to blame, but it really is the combination of heavy rotating mass and the stock Bridgestones (literally "stones"). If you have not done so already... please discard the stock tires before you make any other suspension changes whatsoever, it will make a drastic difference in itself. The way these tires absorb expansion joints, potholes, and bumps in the road for a 30 profile tire is truly astonishing.
With regards to grip, I am still in the initial 100 miles of the tires and I have not yet worn into the real meat of the tire so it's still not at 100% I can tell, but even already the grip is dramatically improved over the stock tires, I am sure sheer size alone has a big factor in that. Whether or not these will be as grippy as a Direzza Z1/Z2 or RE11 is questionable at this point. Personally, I don't think it will ever get quite that grippy. However, those tires will not be nearly as good of a street tires as these PSS, a tradeoff well worth it considering this thing will never see the track.
Sidewalls is the only Achilles heel of the PSS. I have never seen such an oddly shaped sidewall ever. The outer lip sticks out nearly 5-7mm over past the wheel edge and because of this it has completely thrown off ALL of my calculations. Michelins of past have been notoriously super narrow for their size with thin sidewalls. But these excessive side walls have made the offset look much more aggressive than I wanted. It now looks like a 19x11" @ 48mm offset instead of a 55mm offset. The wheels themselves at 55mm were borderline, but with PSS it has push them out more than anticipated. Perhaps a drop will help the car "Squat" more and minimize this appearance, but had I known this going into it, I may have chosen a different tire. So for this reason, if you plan on running PSS... MAKE SURE to compensate at least an additional 5-7mm minimum in your calculations. The ONE good thing about such a sidewall is you will probably never ever get a curb rash because it provides so much protection for such a low profile tire... again, life is always about compromise.
Price:
The Forgestars were only $1750 shipped included bolts from "DV8 Motoring" and the tires came out to ~1250. So for basically $3000 you can have an amazing wheel & tire setup. Factor in your stock set of wheels & tires is probably worth $800-1000 conservatively and you are looking at net cost of $2000-2200 for the total transformation. Worth every penny in my book.
Summary:
Although the wheels came out slightly wider than expected, you can only really tell from a very narrow angle just off angle and from any other angle they look fantastic. The ride has truly been transformed in ways I never could have imagined. Although I am still waiting for the tires to truly "bite", for now the ride quality, comfort, steering response and handling alone have transformed so much I can definitely tell this is a MUST DO mod for anyone. To increase the performance potential of the car to such a large degree AND still reduce the weight even more is truly the best of both worlds, and in that regard, I could not be happier with the transformation. (I will let the pictures do the rest of the talking...)
(click on png file and zoom in to full size to view data.... its a LOT of data. I guarantee you won't find a more complete set of data anywhere lol)
Last edited by 007 Vantage; 04-04-2014 at 08:03 PM.
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#10
04-04-2014, 09:25 PM
BTW: a few comments:
- In your "installation" section, I think you mean lug nuts instead of bolts. You had me a bit confused when you kept referring to black or chrome 2-inch bolts.
- If you wanted, you could trim the rear bolts and then use a shorter lug nut. Just make sure you have the minimum number of threads exposed so that the wheel is safely mounted. The only catch would be that you would have to replace the splined bolts with a new set from Aston if you ever were to go back to a stock wheel (although I doubt you ever would).
- If you did trim the bolts, you might be able to use the OEM lug nuts (assuming the "seat" is of the correct shape). One thing I really like about Aston's lug nuts is that the have a built-in slip washer that makes contact with the wheel. That means that when you torque down the nut, the washer doesn't spin and this keeps the the lug nut from scraping the paint off the mating surface on your wheel.
- Did the wheel manufacturer offer the option of using the OEM center caps? I rather prefer having the wing logo than because it makes the wheel look less "aftermarket".
- I really like the fact that the PSS have a thicker sidewall because, as you mention, it will help protect the wheel from any potential curb rash. I think you're being overly critical on how it looks. It looks great to me and contributes to a more aggressive look.
- Lowering the ride height would make the car look more "slammed" and I don't think that's a good thing. Leave that to the ricers unless you can go for a height-adjustable suspension. I'm not a fan of cars lowered to where the sidewall is tucked behind the fender line.
- Now that you have wider front wheels, I suggest you invest in a set of Aston's front mud guards. They will help protect your side sills from stone chips that the wider tires will invariably kick up.
#12
04-04-2014, 10:17 PM
You can certainly buy 1.4" lug nuts from Gorilla to fit, so you don't need to cut the lugs or live with those 2" jobs.
#13
04-04-2014, 10:41 PM
^^^^ I think what he is saying is that because the wheels are more concave and the pockets are shallow, there is more of the stud exposed than with the standard wheels. Therefore, you either need a longer/deeper nut or you need to replace the splined studs with shorter ones that don't stick out as much. Using a shorter lug nut from Gorilla won't help if the stud is too long. That is why I suggested trimming the existing rear studs a bit.
The lug nuts look fine on the front wheels because the wheel is less concave so the pockets are deeper. The rears, however, do look awkwardly long. I guess OEM manufacturers work this out when designing a wheel such that you don't wind up having different sets of lug nuts front and rear which could be a liability if the owner mistakenly uses the wrong ones and the wheel isn't properly secured.
BTW: 007: What is that thing that looks like a black piece of tubing hanging underneath your car inboard of the right rear tire? I don't remember there being a drip line that long hanging from that area under the car.
The lug nuts look fine on the front wheels because the wheel is less concave so the pockets are deeper. The rears, however, do look awkwardly long. I guess OEM manufacturers work this out when designing a wheel such that you don't wind up having different sets of lug nuts front and rear which could be a liability if the owner mistakenly uses the wrong ones and the wheel isn't properly secured.
BTW: 007: What is that thing that looks like a black piece of tubing hanging underneath your car inboard of the right rear tire? I don't remember there being a drip line that long hanging from that area under the car.
Last edited by karlfranz; 04-05-2014 at 01:48 AM.
#14
04-05-2014, 07:07 AM
It was interesting on your feedback on the wheels. I just bought used 20" wheels and thought I'd sacrifice the ride quality a little. The rears are Michelin's and fronts Falken. I was going to put the rear Falken's on because the Michelin's are a bit worn, but after your post will opt for the same tires you have. I'm running 295/30/20" rear and 245/35/20" front. The first time driving the car it seemed a bit smoother than driving on the 19's... I wasn't sure if that was my imagination playing tricks on me, but after reading your post, I think the ride actually did improve! Thanks for the info.
