2007 Running Rich - low lumpy idle
#1
2007 Running Rich - low lumpy idle
i’ve noticed the car doesn’t seem to be running right since the service last month.
At first, it seemed the idle was a little slow and sometimes it was around 450-500rpm. It didn’t make much difference if in N, D or Park. It drove absolutely fine so didn’t think much of it. Then after about 800 miles whilst in Portugal the amber engine light came on but the car continued to drive fine. Got it checked out and the fault code was P0172 (System Too Rich - Bank 1).
The fault light was cleared, and has not come back on since (another 800 miles) but i have noticed a few isolated mis-fires both while driving at low revs (say cruising at 40mph) and also when i started the car at idle there were several misfire and a bit of a lumpy idle again.
I thought initially that it may be cheap fuel from Spanish and Portuguese petrol stations out in the sticks, but even now back on a tank of UK 98 fuel its still not behaving right.
The engine light came back on again yesterday, but not yet checked the codes again but I suspect it’s fuel trim to rich again.
Any ideas? They did a vacuum test as part of the service which didn’t show anything untoward.
At first, it seemed the idle was a little slow and sometimes it was around 450-500rpm. It didn’t make much difference if in N, D or Park. It drove absolutely fine so didn’t think much of it. Then after about 800 miles whilst in Portugal the amber engine light came on but the car continued to drive fine. Got it checked out and the fault code was P0172 (System Too Rich - Bank 1).
The fault light was cleared, and has not come back on since (another 800 miles) but i have noticed a few isolated mis-fires both while driving at low revs (say cruising at 40mph) and also when i started the car at idle there were several misfire and a bit of a lumpy idle again.
I thought initially that it may be cheap fuel from Spanish and Portuguese petrol stations out in the sticks, but even now back on a tank of UK 98 fuel its still not behaving right.
The engine light came back on again yesterday, but not yet checked the codes again but I suspect it’s fuel trim to rich again.
Any ideas? They did a vacuum test as part of the service which didn’t show anything untoward.
#2
There are several possibilities for a P0172. Probably the most common is one or more stuck/dirty fuel injectors on bank 1. If you have or can get Chevron Techron on your side, try a little heavier concentration in the next fuel fillup. A couple of Techron treatments might clean up injectors. And, yes, bad fuel somewhere could contribute. Don't go crazy with an overdose though. maybe a full tank bottle on 3/4 tank of fuel a couple of times.
There are other reasons for P0172
An air leak past the MAF on Bank 1.
Bad fuel pressure regulator
Even something as simple as a poor seal at the oil dipstick. On a personal note, I've replaced the O-ring on the dipstick and I have added a larger O-Ring to fit right under the shoulder below the handle. Finally, I use a simple tie wrap to keep the dipstick solidly seated on the added O-Ring. Overkill without a doubt, but makes me feel better.
All the Best, and luck solving it.
There are other reasons for P0172
An air leak past the MAF on Bank 1.
Bad fuel pressure regulator
Even something as simple as a poor seal at the oil dipstick. On a personal note, I've replaced the O-ring on the dipstick and I have added a larger O-Ring to fit right under the shoulder below the handle. Finally, I use a simple tie wrap to keep the dipstick solidly seated on the added O-Ring. Overkill without a doubt, but makes me feel better.
All the Best, and luck solving it.
#3
Thanks for the advice. Wouldn’t an air leak post MAF cause the sustem to run lean? As the engine will be fueled for the amount of air going through the MAF, but in fact there is more air going through (given that post MAF, pre turbo is still under vacuum)?
I assume the measurement for this code code is by the ore-cat O2 sensor when operating in closed loop?
In in any case, i’ll Try some injector cleaner on the next few tanks.
I assume the measurement for this code code is by the ore-cat O2 sensor when operating in closed loop?
In in any case, i’ll Try some injector cleaner on the next few tanks.
#4
Thanks for the advice. Wouldn’t an air leak post MAF cause the sustem to run lean? As the engine will be fueled for the amount of air going through the MAF, but in fact there is more air going through (given that post MAF, pre turbo is still under vacuum)?
I assume the measurement for this code code is by the ore-cat O2 sensor when operating in closed loop?
In in any case, i’ll Try some injector cleaner on the next few tanks.
I assume the measurement for this code code is by the ore-cat O2 sensor when operating in closed loop?
In in any case, i’ll Try some injector cleaner on the next few tanks.
In closed loop the ECU uses MAF Frequencies (in Hz), to fuel from a table, then an adder (or a subtract) based on the pre-cat O2 FB from the previous combustion cycle. Normal O2 cycles are equal continuous lean/rich. LTFTs continue to adjust over time to compensate for small normal changes to maintain a Stoich AFR, changes such as air filters getting dirty over time, etc. But, in the case of an air leak or vacuum leak (such as a P0171/74) certain normal changes are exceeded (LTFT adjustments made too fast and large), P017Xs will be set. Lean is the worse condition and can be damaging to the engine so most engine management programs I've seen are limited to a 25% lean correction before a P0171/74 are set. On the rich side the 25% rule doesn't apply.
Sorry for getting too wordy.
Last edited by BWings; 10-30-2018 at 06:08 AM.
#5
Sorry, what I meant was that a leak between MAF and turbo would always result in running lean, as that part of the system is always under vacuum. So if it is an air leak, it must be between turbo and cylinder as that is the only part that experience positive pressure.
#6
Sorry, what I meant was that a leak between MAF and turbo would always result in running lean, as that part of the system is always under vacuum. So if it is an air leak, it must be between turbo and cylinder as that is the only part that experience positive pressure.
This is a good discussion, but I think a reasonable approach for you to take is simplest first. I also think you're on the right track to try the injector cleaner. If after a couple of tries, clearing the code, seeing if it resets, then move onto more complex possibles. At least running rich, you're not in danger of engine damage. However, if you're dumping large amounts of fuel into the exhaust, the Cats won't like that.
#7
3 bottles of Chevron ordered
Trending Topics
#10
So I put the first bottle in, and at the same time cleared codes. This time, using VAGCOM i got a bit more detail than I did with the generic reader.
I also used measuring block 32 to see current fuel trim. The first value is the additive value, so what's happening at idle. -ve means its running rich and the system is trying to lean it out. RossTech Wiki says this indicates a vacuum leak, but then a video by RossTech on Youtube says that a vacuum leak (dipstick not seated) causes a lean condition. So i'm confused.
Wiki: http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/Fuel_Trim_Info
Video (skip to 2:10):
The fault codes point to potential MAF problem, as it was the dodgy MAF signal that turned on the MIL light this time.
I also used measuring block 32 to see current fuel trim. The first value is the additive value, so what's happening at idle. -ve means its running rich and the system is trying to lean it out. RossTech Wiki says this indicates a vacuum leak, but then a video by RossTech on Youtube says that a vacuum leak (dipstick not seated) causes a lean condition. So i'm confused.
Wiki: http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index.php/Fuel_Trim_Info
Video (skip to 2:10):
The fault codes point to potential MAF problem, as it was the dodgy MAF signal that turned on the MIL light this time.
008584 - Bank 1; System too Rich at Idle
P2188 - 002 - - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100010
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 56292 km
Time Indication: 0
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 536 /min
Load: 24.3 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Temperature: 93.0°C
Temperature: 53.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 1010.0 mbar
Voltage: 12.573 V
000257 - Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70)
P0101 - 008 - Implausible Signal - MIL ON
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 11101000
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 8
Mileage: 56301 km
Time Indication: 0
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 1420 /min
Load: 44.3 %
Speed: 75.0 km/h
Temperature: 90.0°C
Temperature: 21.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 1010.0 mbar
Voltage: 13.208 V
P2188 - 002 - - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100010
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 1
Mileage: 56292 km
Time Indication: 0
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 536 /min
Load: 24.3 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Temperature: 93.0°C
Temperature: 53.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 1010.0 mbar
Voltage: 12.573 V
000257 - Mass Air Flow Sensor (G70)
P0101 - 008 - Implausible Signal - MIL ON
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 11101000
Fault Priority: 0
Fault Frequency: 8
Mileage: 56301 km
Time Indication: 0
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 1420 /min
Load: 44.3 %
Speed: 75.0 km/h
Temperature: 90.0°C
Temperature: 21.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 1010.0 mbar
Voltage: 13.208 V
Last edited by neiloakley; 11-03-2018 at 08:27 AM.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Shantybeater
996 Turbo / GT2
32
10-21-2013 12:31 PM