997S vs E92 M3...Thoughts/Opinions
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Porsche is a much more driver envolving experience than any BMW
Sure the M3 is a much better DD, but not a better car than a 911S (whether C2S or C4S)
I have an X3 since 4 years and find it to be perfect. Last year I wanted to trade it in and get a new M3 with DCT. I test drove the car and felt the handling to be very neutral, but the test drive didn't excite me at all, nothing...
In the end, I bought a new C4S with PDK and kept my X3. I only use the C4S 2 or 3 times a month, but every time I use it it's an incredible experience, which the M3 won't do
If I didn't have enough money to finance my toys, then I would have gone for M3 as a DD. But comparing the M3 to a 911S is not appropiate, the 911S is a true sports car
And if you can go a step further, then get a GT3, which is the best 911 there is !
Sure the M3 is a much better DD, but not a better car than a 911S (whether C2S or C4S)
I have an X3 since 4 years and find it to be perfect. Last year I wanted to trade it in and get a new M3 with DCT. I test drove the car and felt the handling to be very neutral, but the test drive didn't excite me at all, nothing...
In the end, I bought a new C4S with PDK and kept my X3. I only use the C4S 2 or 3 times a month, but every time I use it it's an incredible experience, which the M3 won't do
If I didn't have enough money to finance my toys, then I would have gone for M3 as a DD. But comparing the M3 to a 911S is not appropiate, the 911S is a true sports car
And if you can go a step further, then get a GT3, which is the best 911 there is !
The M3 handles better, is more neutral, more controllable, more usable, and has more modification potential. Personally, I feel the M3 is far more fun and tossable, a better car.
The GT3 is a different animal and a different discussion.
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The 911S uses an outdated rear engine design that would be outperformed by its own mid-engine sibling if Porsche did not forcibly protect it.
The M3 handles better, is more neutral, more controllable, more usable, and has more modification potential. Personally, I feel the M3 is far more fun and tossable, a better car.
The GT3 is a different animal and a different discussion.
The M3 handles better, is more neutral, more controllable, more usable, and has more modification potential. Personally, I feel the M3 is far more fun and tossable, a better car.
The GT3 is a different animal and a different discussion.
- ALMS 2009: first place, where's the M3 ?
- Nurburgring lap times: 7:50 C2S and 8:05 the M3
Even with an "outdated" engine it's far superior than the M3
Imagine what it would do if the engine was properly designed and positioned...
Although I agree that lap times and certain tests are helpful, some lap times and races are subjective and aren't indicative of the entire picture. Perfect example:
IS-F vs M3 on Fifth Gear......M3 is faster around a track than only 1/10th of a second!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRDL5hiEMto
Top Gear lap times:
IS-F vs M3 on Fifth Gear......M3 is faster around a track than only 1/10th of a second!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRDL5hiEMto
Top Gear lap times:
- 1:26.3 - Vauxhall VXR8 Bathurst S
- 1:26.4 - Lotus Exige (mildly moist)
- 1:26.7 - Porsche Cayman S[19]
- 1:26.7 - Jaguar XFR
- 1:26.8 - Chevrolet Corvette C6 LS2
- 1:26.8 - Aston Martin V12 Vantage (Not Shown on TV)[12]
- 1:26.8 - Ferrari 575M Maranello GTC[20]
- 1:26.9 - Lexus IS-F
- 1:26.9 - Mercedes-Benz CLS55 AMG
- 1:27:0 - BMW M5 E39
- 1:27.1 - Aston Martin Vanquish S
- 1:27.1 - Aston Martin DB9
- 1:27.1 - HSV Maloo
- 1:27.2 - Porsche 911 GT3 RS (996)
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911, even in racing, is far superior than the M3:
- ALMS 2009: first place, where's the M3 ?
- Nurburgring lap times: 7:50 C2S and 8:05 the M3
Even with an "outdated" engine it's far superior than the M3
Imagine what it would do if the engine was properly designed and positioned...
- ALMS 2009: first place, where's the M3 ?
- Nurburgring lap times: 7:50 C2S and 8:05 the M3
Even with an "outdated" engine it's far superior than the M3
Imagine what it would do if the engine was properly designed and positioned...
So now that the street 911 gets beat around the track you are bringing up the race cars? The M3 got back into racing this season after a long drought because it whooped on Porsche so hard that Porsche cried.
M3 CSL: 7:50 around the ring, on an older chassis, without the V8. Wonder what the GTS will do
Last edited by CURI0; Feb 8, 2010 at 09:12 PM.
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I'm telling you people, the 911's will always handle better than an M3. I have had 2 E46 M3s, the second being super-charged, fast as hell, but when I sold the M3 two years ago to get my first Porsche- a 2002 Carrera 4s, I was shocked at the difference in handling. Driving the M3 at the limit was always easy, driving the 4s at the limit was defiantly tricky. The M3 is a perfect balanced sports car, while the 4s is balanced like a go-cart. I have even driven the new E92 M3 a few times, and you still do not get the "go-cart" type of feeling.
As for Limited-Slip-Differentials, the 911 really does not need one, while on any M3 it is a must. It is very easy to break the rear-end loose on the M3 while accelerating in turns, while on the 911's it is very hard to break the rear-end loose while accelerating in turns because of all the weight pushing down on the rear axles hence the reason why a rear engine Porsche will always handle better than any M3.
Bottom-line is that I prefer to drive the M3 at the limit because of the neutral/ balanced handling, but I do not feel comfortable driving the 4s at the limit because the threshold of the limit is so high that once you hit the limit, it's always massive understeer with the rear-end swinging out really fast- hard to control. The BMW M3's are all great cars to control sideways, not a Porsche,
..
-Alex
As for Limited-Slip-Differentials, the 911 really does not need one, while on any M3 it is a must. It is very easy to break the rear-end loose on the M3 while accelerating in turns, while on the 911's it is very hard to break the rear-end loose while accelerating in turns because of all the weight pushing down on the rear axles hence the reason why a rear engine Porsche will always handle better than any M3.
Bottom-line is that I prefer to drive the M3 at the limit because of the neutral/ balanced handling, but I do not feel comfortable driving the 4s at the limit because the threshold of the limit is so high that once you hit the limit, it's always massive understeer with the rear-end swinging out really fast- hard to control. The BMW M3's are all great cars to control sideways, not a Porsche,
..-Alex
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I'm telling you people, the 911's will always handle better than an M3. I have had 2 E46 M3s, the second being super-charged, fast as hell, but when I sold the M3 two years ago to get my first Porsche- a 2002 Carrera 4s, I was shocked at the difference in handling. Driving the M3 at the limit was always easy, driving the 4s at the limit was defiantly tricky. The M3 is a perfect balanced sports car, while the 4s is balanced like a go-cart. I have even driven the new E92 M3 a few times, and you still do not get the "go-cart" type of feeling.
As for Limited-Slip-Differentials, the 911 really does not need one, while on any M3 it is a must. It is very easy to break the rear-end loose on the M3 while accelerating in turns, while on the 911's it is very hard to break the rear-end loose while accelerating in turns because of all the weight pushing down on the rear axles hence the reason why a rear engine Porsche will always handle better than any M3.
Bottom-line is that I prefer to drive the M3 at the limit because of the neutral/ balanced handling, but I do not feel comfortable driving the 4s at the limit because the threshold of the limit is so high that once you hit the limit, it's always massive understeer with the rear-end swinging out really fast- hard to control. The BMW M3's are all great cars to control sideways, not a Porsche,..
-Alex
As for Limited-Slip-Differentials, the 911 really does not need one, while on any M3 it is a must. It is very easy to break the rear-end loose on the M3 while accelerating in turns, while on the 911's it is very hard to break the rear-end loose while accelerating in turns because of all the weight pushing down on the rear axles hence the reason why a rear engine Porsche will always handle better than any M3.
Bottom-line is that I prefer to drive the M3 at the limit because of the neutral/ balanced handling, but I do not feel comfortable driving the 4s at the limit because the threshold of the limit is so high that once you hit the limit, it's always massive understeer with the rear-end swinging out really fast- hard to control. The BMW M3's are all great cars to control sideways, not a Porsche,
..-Alex
Yes, the 911 needed and LSD badly and it got one...
Just look at Car and Driver Lightning Lap around VIR, the M3 beats not only the 911 S but also the Cayman... which turns the same lap as the 911 (imagine if it had the same motor)
: 
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Say what you want, the 997.2 C2S or C4S is a better car than the E90 or E92 M3:
http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/4...744cdd4d5.html
These comparisons, over several tracks around the world, is between production cars
http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/4...744cdd4d5.html
These comparisons, over several tracks around the world, is between production cars
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Say what you want, the 997.2 C2S or C4S is a better car than the E90 or E92 M3:
http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/4...744cdd4d5.html
These comparisons, over several tracks around the world, is between production cars
http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/4...744cdd4d5.html
These comparisons, over several tracks around the world, is between production cars
Hell, Car and Driver seems to think it is better than the GTR and the 911 turbo: http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...mparison_tests
911 has yet to be picked in a test vs. the M3
The Carrera and 997S still have yet to win a lap time comparison in a major US magazine as well.. giant conspiracy must be going on.
I find it funny that 997S fans can't come to terms with it.
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The 911S uses an outdated rear engine design that would be outperformed by its own mid-engine sibling if Porsche did not forcibly protect it.
The M3 handles better, is more neutral, more controllable, more usable, and has more modification potential. Personally, I feel the M3 is far more fun and tossable, a better car.
The GT3 is a different animal and a different discussion.
The M3 handles better, is more neutral, more controllable, more usable, and has more modification potential. Personally, I feel the M3 is far more fun and tossable, a better car.
The GT3 is a different animal and a different discussion.
Different motor and suspension, but exactly the same platform as the 997S. I don't totally disagree, as I love the GT3, and would not trade it for a dozen M3's. And that's not meant as critical as it sounds. The M3 is a great car, and I would buy another one in a heartbeat if I were in the sports sedan market.
I find it interesting how folks justify their preferences. All this talk of front v. mid v. rear engine designs is often taken way too far. Each layout has its unique characteristics, and some drivers find one easier or more fun to drive. But any inherent superiority of one over the other isn't worth a jar of cold ****. Folks should just learn to drive the car of their preference. If they do it well, they will not be disadvantaged by the engine's location.
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Huh? Did they slide the engine forward in the GT3 while I wasn't looking?
Different motor and suspension, but exactly the same platform as the 997S. I don't totally disagree, as I love the GT3, and would not trade it for a dozen M3's. And that's not meant as critical as it sounds. The M3 is a great car, and I would buy another one in a heartbeat if I were in the sports sedan market.
I find it interesting how folks justify their preferences. All this talk of front v. mid v. rear engine designs is often taken way too far. Each layout has its unique characteristics, and some drivers find one easier or more fun to drive. But any inherent superiority of one over the other isn't worth a jar of cold ****. Folks should just learn to drive the car of their preference. If they do it well, they will not be disadvantaged by the engine's location.
Different motor and suspension, but exactly the same platform as the 997S. I don't totally disagree, as I love the GT3, and would not trade it for a dozen M3's. And that's not meant as critical as it sounds. The M3 is a great car, and I would buy another one in a heartbeat if I were in the sports sedan market.
I find it interesting how folks justify their preferences. All this talk of front v. mid v. rear engine designs is often taken way too far. Each layout has its unique characteristics, and some drivers find one easier or more fun to drive. But any inherent superiority of one over the other isn't worth a jar of cold ****. Folks should just learn to drive the car of their preference. If they do it well, they will not be disadvantaged by the engine's location.
Absolutely! Each car has its characteristics and no one is going to tell someone what subjectively is better. However, we were speaking about performance which can be measured.
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Last edited by carfan; Feb 10, 2010 at 04:27 PM.